Blue Patrol Frock

[FROGSMILE]

And here examples for officers of field rank, one of whom was a Territorial (auxiliary) as evidenced by the ‘T’ adjacent to rank on his shoulder straps.

Notice also that the collar is by now noticeably lower than that of the Indian Medical Service officer on the preceding page.

Edited 31 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

And finally, returning to an area of more interest to you, a jacket worn by a sergeant of the Royal Corps of Signals.  Notice that the quality of the cloth was by now much closer to that of the officers and the main difference was the manufacture in stock sizes, as opposed to the “bespoke” fitting of the officers equivalent.  Although a corps with Royal appellation, the backing to the rank stripes is blue, rather than the scarlet that it would be for a Royal infantry regiment.  The collar is also lower than that for an officer, but it is otherwise cut very similarly.  The lower jacket has the coloured piping around the shoulder straps introduced for the jacket at the very end of the 1940s and given its first large scale outing at the coronation of her majesty Queen Elizabeth II in 1953.

Edited 28 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

Frogsmile, thank you again for even more valuable information.  I have never seen photos of the Type B before.  Actually I didn't know it existed.  I have to admit I much prefer the appearance of the Type A though.  You should publish all this like was done for the Brodrick cap a few years ago.

Is the very large fellow standing in the back row wearing a full dress scarlet tunic?  It's obviously not a Blue Patrol.  Most of the ORs have a different jacket.  Are they the canvas jackets you hear about.  They and the big guy are also wearing white belts.  They appear to have won a shooting competition using the MkI or I* Lee Metfords.  An interesting photo.

Harvey 

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, Piper42nd said:

Frogsmile, thank you again for even more valuable information.  I have never seen photos of the Type B before.  Actually I didn't know it existed.  I have to admit I much prefer the appearance of the Type A though.  You should publish all this like was done for the Brodrick cap a few years ago.

Is the very large fellow standing in the back row wearing a full dress scarlet tunic?  It's obviously not a Blue Patrol.  Most of the ORs have a different jacket.  Are they the canvas jackets you hear about.  They and the big guy are also wearing white belts.  They appear to have won a shooting competition using the MkI or I* Lee Metfords.  An interesting photo.

Harvey 

I’m glad to help Harvey.  By writing here the information is free for all rather than just those who can afford a book.

The big man is wearing a 7-button home service scarlet frock.  An undress garment, and alternative to the 5-button type, you can spot it even at a distance via the absence of the white piping down the front that it would have were it a tunic.  No front piping on home service = frock.  With front piping on home service = tunic (i.e. full dress)#.

Collar and cuffs were usually in facing colour, which in the photo was dark blue, and it had lower pockets with flaps**.  The Scottish version had 6-buttons, as did another used by some bands.  1890s garments, they were still in limited use in 1914.

You are quite correct that many of the men are wearing the jacket from the canvas working suit that was issued to every soldier.  Intended to protect the scarlet clothing, including undress, it was commonly worn for dirty “fatigues” (the term for administrative upkeep) but also in many units for weapon training, as it protected scarlet from gun oil.

**the very first drab khaki serge frock of the 2nd Boer War copied this design.

#there were some special differences relating to SNCOs in India.

 

 

 

Edited 1 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[sassenach]

An account of the Battle of Isandhlwana (which was 145 years ago today) states that the five Imperial officers who survived the battle owed their survival to the fact that they wore blue patrol jackets rather than red jackets, resulting in the Zulus ignoring them.

Could anyone suggest any reason why such a small number of officers would have been dressed in this way, please?

 

Edited 22 January by sassenach

[FROGSMILE]

On 22/01/2024 at 16:28, sassenach said:

An account of the Battle of Isandhlwana (which was 145 years ago today) states that the five Imperial officers who survived the battle owed their survival to the fact that they wore blue patrol jackets rather than red jackets, resulting in the Zulus ignoring them.

Could anyone suggest any reason why such a small number of officers would have been dressed in this way, please?

 

The regimental staff often wore blue patrols (medical officer, quartermaster, etc.), plus any formation headquarters staff that might be present.  The expression “staff in blue” was common and even used as the order of dress on certain formal parades.  It was a different (older) style of blue patrol to the one described in this thread and had four rows of frogging (for infantry) across the front.  The version in this thread replaced it.  The other garment that fell into the same category of “blue” was the frock coat, which was a longer garment.  Originally single breasted when first introduced, the final version of frock coat was double breasted and is still worn by general officers as ceremonial dress today.  Ironic for something that was the most informal type of parade dress.

Edited 23 January by FROGSMILE

[sassenach]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The regimental staff often wore blue patrols (medical officer, quartermaster, etc.), plus any formation headquarters staff that might be present.  The expression “staff in blue” was common and even used as the order of dress on certain formal parades.  It was a different (older) style of blue patrol to the one described in this thread and had four rows of frogging (for infantry) across the front.  The version in this thread replaced it.

Thanks, Frogsmile. Much appreciated.

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Thanks, Frogsmile. Much appreciated.

Glad to help.  The rationale is that it was an easy way to distinguish the staff officers for those looking for them.  This need was later fulfilled instead by coloured armlets (aka brassards), a French idea.

[sassenach]

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Glad to help.  The rationale is that it was an easy way to distinguish the staff officers for those looking for them.  This need was later fulfilled instead by coloured armlets (aka brassards), a French idea.

One of the five "bluecoats" who survived Isandhlwana was the famous Smith-Dorrien, who is described as "being employed on transport duties," so that makes sense.

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, sassenach said:

One of the five "bluecoats" who survived Isandhlwana was the famous Smith-Dorrien, who is described as "being employed on transport duties," so that makes sense.

Yes I’m familiar with his story.  The statement is a little misleading.  While it’s true that those who successfully escaped happened to be wearing blue and so in the eyes of the Zulus were not so important (Cetshwayo had apparently given explicit instructions about that) it’s not true that all in blue survived.  It’s believed for example that both the 1/24th and 2/24th quartermasters died in blue because they stayed with their men and continued to issue ammunition for as long as it was possible for them to do so. 

[sassenach]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I’m familiar with his story.  The statement is a little misleading.  While it’s true that those who successfully escaped happened to be wearing blue and so in the eyes of the Zulus were not so important (Cetshwayo had apparently given explicit instructions about that) it’s not true that all in blue survived.  It’s believed for example that both the 1/24th and 2/24th quartermasters died in blue because they stayed with their men and continued to issue ammunition for as long as it was possible for them to do so. 

Yes, indeed. Lt Coghill was orderly officer to Colonel Glyn, so am I right in thinking that he would also have been in blue when he was killed alongside Lt Melville?

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Yes, indeed. Lt Coghill was orderly officer to Colonel Glyn, so am I right in thinking that he would also have been in blue when he was killed alongside Lt Melville?

Yes that’s correct and he is generally depicted as such In artworks etc.

 

Edited 22 January by FROGSMILE

[sassenach]

He looks to be wearing khaki coloured trousers in the second photo, but blue ones in the one where his body is found with that of Melville. 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, sassenach said:

He looks to be wearing khaki coloured trousers in the second photo, but blue ones in the one where his body is found with that of Melville. 

Khaki is extremely unlikely on regular infantry like the 24th at that time in Zululand.  At that stage it was still an Indian sub-continent thing (e.g. Maiwand at around a similar period).  There’s no evidence of khaki on regular troops in the Zulu war apart from perhaps some mounted infantry who were specially issued Bedford cord breeches in fawn colour.  It was for the most part all imperial scarlet and blue.  I fear we are stretching a little too far from WW1, but by all means PM me if you want to continue.  I will be happy to respond to, or answer anything else.

NB.  Durnford’s Natal Mounted Police / Carbineers officers are also depicted wearing Bedford cord breeches, a very hard wearing cloth for nether garments undergoing hard use whilst riding and so very popular.

Edited 22 January by FROGSMILE

[sassenach]

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Khaki is extremely unlikely on regular infantry like the 24th at that time in Zululand.  At that stage it was still an Indian sun continenent thing (e.g. Maiwand around a similar period).  There’s no evidence of khaki on regular troops in the Zulu war apart from perhaps some mounted infantry who were specially issued Bedford cord breeches in fawn colour.  It was all imperial scarlet and blue.  I fear we are stretching a little too far from WW1, but by all means PM me if you want to continue.  I will be happy to respond to, or answer anything else.

Thanks again. Very grateful. Will leave you in peace now!