Blue Patrol Frock

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Piper42nd said:

Here's a photo from earlier in the post.  Could I ask what you think of these?  Large or small?  All the same size?

Yes they are all the same size and of the medium category.  British military buttons traditionally come in 3 main sizes:

a. 25mm "Large" size (known as 40 ligne) used for tunic buttons, great coats and officer's buttons.

b. 19mm "Medium" sized (known as 30 ligne) buttons used for service dress jackets, blue patrol uniform fronts, pockets and epaulettes.

c. 14mm "Small" size (known as 22 ligne) buttons mainly used for caps’ chinstraps, mess dress waistcoats (aka ‘vests’) and jacket cuffs, and Generals’ and staff officers’ scarlet gorget tabs.

NB. Button Ligne - the traditional way of measuring buttons.

In British military dress and clothing regulations**, the diameter of buttons is often measured in 'Lines' or 'Lignes' (abbreviated to 'L'). 40L = 1 inch = 25.4 millimetres.  Lignes rarely have an exact equivalent in whole millimetres, which is why it is common nowadays to round the measurement to the nearest half-millimetre when describing button sizes.

Ligne	14L	16L	18L	20L	22L	24L	26L	28L	30L	32L	36L	40L	44L	48L
Millimetres	9	10	11.5	13	14	15	16	18	19	20	23	25	28	30

 

** Traditionally officers were prescribed Dress Regulations, whereas soldiers (other ranks/enlisted men) were ruled by Clothing Regulations.  This remained the case until quite recently.

Edited 2 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

Thanks very much Frogsmile.  A very complete answer as usual.  My only problem now is finding a source for 19mm buttons.  

Harvey 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Piper42nd said:

Thanks very much Frogsmile.  A very complete answer as usual.  My only problem now is finding a source for 19mm buttons.  

Harvey 

The good news is that they are by far the more common button size, but remember that the general service pattern were decreed for ranks below officer.  It was really only the regimental band, drums and pipes and SNCOs who might, under regimental arrangements, (usually using profits from unit canteens) wear regimental buttons under a special dispensation. 

Edited 2 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

Interestingly enough the small buttons I showed on my jacket earlier today are 18mm.  So the photo of my jacket with the small buttons looks essentially correct?

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Piper42nd said:

Interestingly enough the small buttons I showed on my jacket earlier today are 18mm.  So the photo of my jacket with the small buttons looks essentially correct?

Yes, absolutely correct.  The earlier jackets like the one you have there did have slightly smaller medium buttons although there was little in it.  If you look at the older photos it is just about noticeable, which is strange given the small difference in tolerance.  I think that they were slightly more dome shaped and so when photographed the reflection and shadow caused by the ambient light gives that slight illusion.  Nevertheless, they were definitely the medium category button as clearly bigger than hat buttons but smaller than tunic buttons. 

Edited 2 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

@FROGSMILEthanks again for all your help. 

Harvey 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Piper42nd said:

@FROGSMILEthanks again for all your help. 

Harvey 

I’m glad to help Harvey and thought you might be interested to see the image of three types of blue patrol uniform enclosed.

On the left with high collar is the original officer pattern (similar to the scarlet version that it followed, accompanied, and then quickly replaced).

On the right is the original other ranks (enlisted men) style with just the breast pockets.

At lower left is the subsequent other ranks pattern, closer to the ‘cut’ (style) of the officers garment, but made of a more coarse and less expensive serge material.

Notice the consistency of the buttons on all three.

There are two iconic aspects of the classic style of blue patrol uniform that distinguish it.  First the simplicity of the patch pockets on both, breast and skirt.  Second the cut of the twin back seams that I mentioned earlier in the thread.  They begin at the top on the shoulder blades, then taper to the waist to give shape and then terminate to coincide with the edge of a twin vented flap.

This has become an enduring and typical British design that in the 2000s has been resurrected for the contemporary British khaki No 2 (service dress) uniform in a distinctly brownish shade.  It also continues in No 1 Dress (the official description now of blue patrols) jackets, but with removable shoulder straps. 

Edited 3 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

On 03/03/2023 at 18:22, Piper42nd said:

@FROGSMILEthanks again for all your help. 

Harvey 

Harvey you might recall that I mentioned cycling clothing used as something of a ploy earlier in this thread.  I believe this regulation was very probably how blue patrol frocks and trousers were first provided for other ranks.  The cost “at own expense” was in reality funded using profits from alcohol sales to soldiers in unit wet canteens, that were generally encouraged in the British Army, although from the 1890s onward supplemented with abstinence clubs and reading rooms too.  See the enclosed extract from clothing regulations 1914 (superseding those of 1909).  Army Clothing Department, Clothing Regulation 1092, refers.

 

Edited 23 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

Frogsmile that makes sense.  I'm kind of surprised that cycling was popular enough that a different set of clothing would be designed.  Are there any photos or illustrations that depict the jacket?  I'm just wondering if it evolved into the design shown in your photos or started off that way.

Harvey 

[FROGSMILE]

On 23/03/2023 at 14:59, Piper42nd said:

Frogsmile that makes sense.  I'm kind of surprised that cycling was popular enough that a different set of clothing would be designed.  Are there any photos or illustrations that depict the jacket?  I'm just wondering if it evolved into the design shown in your photos or started off that way.

Harvey 

I will look for some photos or diagrams, I know that one or two exist.  I don’t think we should read too much into the dress as only for cycling, as I believe it quickly became a ploy to fill a gap.  It was all connected with the issue of a ‘universal’ drab khaki woollen uniform in 1902 (i.e. service dress - SD).  It was decreed that SD was to replace all other undress and so replaced the scarlet frock (and it’s equivalent in other arms and corps), which left no smart uniform for in barracks for those who believed soldiers should be dressed smartly when not in the field.  It left them with just three suits of clothing, 1. Full Dress (including Whites in hot climates), 2. Service Dress (or Khaki Drill) and 3. the Canvas Fatigue suit.  What was missed was the scarlet frock, and the blue cycling suit, repurposed to copy the officers Blue Patrols, conveniently filled that gap.  As the War Office (read Treasury) were unwilling to fund another uniform at public expense, the self funded cycling suit became a convenient ploy.  Soldiers liked it and the money to pay for it came from the profits of their own off-duty canteens.  Trousers were commonly the same as used for full dress (undress trews for highlanders), so it was really only the jacket that had to be paid for.

NB.  As you will know the cycling for leisure quickly became morphed into the idea of military cycling as a form of cheap and convenient tactical mobility (first recorded use Easter Manoeuvres 1887).

Edited 29 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 See the enclosed extract from clothing regulations 1914.  Army Clothing Department, Clothing Regulation 1092, refers.

 

 

The reference to rifle regiments having a suit of black tartan is interesting. I assume that the weave is referred to [an obscure one] rather than tartan as we usually know it

[FROGSMILE]

35 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

The reference to rifle regiments having a suit of black tartan is interesting. I assume that the weave is referred to [an obscure one] rather than tartan as we usually know it

The meaning of tartan then was dual and in clothier and tailoring terms was a type of woollen weave.  It was most commonly used for trousers, but also for the rifles undress uniform in its entirety, which was black rather than the dark green of full dress, because of problems with colour fast dyes.  Ironically it was a German company, IG Farben, that eventually solved it. Not for nothing were the Rifle Brigade nicknamed the sweeps, although it had originally been to do with their facings.

Edited 23 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

Thought so, but nice to know, thanks

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

Thought so, but nice to know, thanks

It’s hard to imagine soldiers clad from head to toe in black, but they were.  No shiny buttons either so their kit cleaning was a lot less.

[FROGSMILE]

On 23/03/2023 at 14:59, Piper42nd said:

Frogsmile that makes sense.  I'm kind of surprised that cycling was popular enough that a different set of clothing would be designed.  Are there any photos or illustrations that depict the jacket?  I'm just wondering if it evolved into the design shown in your photos or started off that way.

Harvey 

Harvey I thought you might like to see this Cameron Highlander wearing the Scottish pattern blue patrol (serge frock) for other ranks at annual camp circa 1920s.  Notice the mitred cuffs, the scalloping to both breast and skirt pocket flaps, and that the flaps are shallower on the breast.

To all intents and purposes the Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) wore the same type, but with their own collar insignia.  It’s important to reiterate that this garment was not worn ‘on parade’ by formed bodies of troops at that time (hence the paucity of photographs), it was therefore not generally worn with a waistbelt.

Edited 15 February by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

Great photo Frogsmile.  Thank you.  I notice that he doesn't have shoulder titles.  Is that a postwar custom?  I think I mentioned before that I am working on a reproduction prewar Black Watch jacket.  Do you think it should have shoulder titles and collar badges or just one or the other?  In the photos you've posted some have both, some one or the other and some neither.

Harvey 

[FROGSMILE]

51 minutes ago, Piper42nd said:

Great photo Frogsmile.  Thank you.  I notice that he doesn't have shoulder titles.  Is that a postwar custom?  I think I mentioned before that I am working on a reproduction prewar Black Watch jacket.  Do you think it should have shoulder titles and collar badges or just one or the other?  In the photos you've posted some have both, some one or the other and some neither.

Harvey 

I think each battalion followed its own practice with regards to shoulder titles on that form of dress, so you’d need to study images of the Black Watch.  Bear in mind also that it’s not at all uncommon for the 1st and 2nd Battalions of regiments to differ their practices slightly in idiosyncratic ways**.

**this was especially so if before 1881 they had been different regiments under the old system of numbered precedence.  That was indeed the case with all of the Highland infantry regiments.  The HLI had a unique regimental version with gauntlet cuffs and several rows of vertical pleating down the centre of the back. 

Edited 25 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

23 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Harvey I thought you might like to see this Cameron Highlander wearing the Scottish pattern blue patrol (serge frock) for other ranks at annual camp circa 1920s.  Notice the mitred cuffs, the scalloping to both breast and skirt pocket flaps, and that they’re shallower on the breast.

To all intents and purposes the Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) wore the same type, but with their own collar insignia.  It’s important to reiterate that this garment was not worn ‘on parade’ by formed bodies of troops at that time (hence the paucity of photographs), it was therefore not generally worn with a waistbelt.

This photo presents a number of anomalies.  The badges are indeed those of the Cameron Highlanders.  However, the diced glengarry, kilt with white overstripes, and sporran with dark tassels are antithetical to the Cameron Highlanders.  I can think of no affiliated Commonwealth unit that would have worn such a uniform.  Do you have a source for this photo, Frogsmile?

[FROGSMILE]

35 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

This photo presents a number of anomalies.  The badges are indeed those of the Cameron Highlanders.  However, the diced glengarry, kilt with white overstripes, and sporran with dark tassels are antithetical to the Cameron Highlanders.  I can think of no affiliated Commonwealth unit that would have worn such a uniform.  Do you have a source for this photo, Frogsmile?

No it’s just a photo from an annual auxiliaries training camp that I’ve picked up along the way.  You make a good point about the kilt and glengarry.  It’s post WW1 and I can only assume has something to do with the then newly formed Territorial Army.  It needs some research.  I believe it’s British rather than Dominion.  Schools (incl UOTCs) and Cadet units is one line of investigation that might bear fruit.  Note the SMLE that he likely laid on the ground behind him for the photo to be taken unless it’s the photographer’s.

Edited 26 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

One thought that’s come to me is the Liverpool Scottish, who we’re transferred from the corps of the King’s Liverpool Regiment to the corps of the Queen’s Own Cameron Highlanders within the Territorial Army between WW1 and WW2.  They wore a mixture of uniform from their new parents and some from their own history as a Volunteer Rifle Corps.  The cap badge changed to be more similar in outline to the Cameron’s.  The tartan was Forbes.

 

 

Edited 26 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

Yes, it does indeed look like Liverpool Scottish ! - including the sporran, which I note has a black strap

[gordon92]

I would agree on Liverpool Scottish.

[FROGSMILE]

21 hours ago, gordon92 said:

I would agree on Liverpool Scottish.

No anomalies at all really, just some battalion idiosyncrasies in the finest auxiliaries tradition…

1. Expat Scottish Unit of Lancashire Rifle Volunteer Corps.

2. Expat Scottish Volunteer Battalion King’s Liverpool Regiment, Volunteer Force.

3. Expat Scottish Battalion of King’s Liverpool Regiment Territorial Force.

5. Liverpool Scottish Battalion of Queen’s Own Cameron Highlanders Territorial Army.

6. Liverpool Scottish Company King’s and Cheshire Regiment TA.

7. Liverpool Scottish Platoon Duke of Lancasters Regiment Army Reserve.

 

Edited 27 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Harvey, to complete the story of the Blue Patrol, or Blue Serge Frock (both descriptions were used for the same garment over the decades) I thought I should show some common variations.  Forum member @Guepemight be interested too.

I’ll start with the “Type B” that was introduced in a 1913 amendment to 1911 Dress Regulations, at the same time as the modified (open) collar for drab khaki service dress (formally authorising something already in effect).  The cut (style) then became very similar between these two uniforms, one for in the field, and the other for duties in and around barracks and administrative offices, such as “orderly room” (the description for summary dealing with infringements of military discipline), as an alternative to frock coats, the other form of undress.

The “Type B” was described as individually optional for all officers as an alternative to “Type A” (the previously “universal” style with upright collar).  It was produced in both standard, Rifles (dark green) and Scottish (cutaway front) patterns and, as with service dress other than when in the field, to be worn with a white, stiff collared shirt and black, ribbed silk tie.  Although this was supposedly an individual choice I suspect that few commanding officers permitted it to be so, as that would have impinged on the most basic principles of uniform.

The enclosed images include a fine head and shoulders portrait of an officer from The Leinster Regiment (Royal Canadian’s), a reputable regiment whose headquarters and depot was at Birr, In King’s County (County Offaly today).  Quite what the overall policy became for that regiment is difficult to ascertain, as other photos from early in 1914 show officers wearing the older, uniform pattern.  In summer months the uniform (plus frock coat) was worn with a white cover over the universal coloured forage cap.

WW1 interrupted before the widespread adoption of Type B and it never really took off in popularity, so with the blue patrol uniform as a whole falling out of use, relatively few seem to have been made.  Blue patrols were reintroduced in the original (upright collar) form as an optional dress item in 1940, also reverting to the original pattern of breast pockets, without expansion pleats.

NB.  Interestingly the Royal Marines alone have retained the old Type B, which they still wear to this day, perhaps because it provides a neckline complementary to their Royal Navy colleagues.

Edited 1 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

And here is the “universal”, or later, “Type A”, as worn by staff and general officers, with appropriate gorget tabs.  Notice that the tabs are longer on an upright collar.

Edited 31 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE