Guards Regiments: Officers commd. from the Ranks

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, Coldstreamer said:

Whilst tidying up my library I have looked in a book that explains to parents of potential Coldstream guards officers the costs. 
The book was printed just after the war in 1921. One of the extracts

 

One of the extracts

It has been found that a young officer who exercises a moderate control of his expenditure can live comfortably on an allowance of £250 a year in addition to his pay.

Pay started at £228 after tax 

 

So not that far short of £500 per annum.  I wonder what that was in contemporary money. 

[phil andrade]

What an interesting thread this has been ! 
 

We read about the officers all the time.

 

What might be equally pertinent is the replacement of the NCOs.

 

The backbone of the army, and expoed, no doubt, to a fearful attrition rate.

 

There must have been criteria of suitability that applied : obviously not so socially conspicuous as those pertaining to officers, but I would like to know more about this.

 

Phil 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, phil andrade said:

What an interesting thread this has been ! 
 

We read about the officers all the time.

 

What might be equally pertinent is the replacement of the NCOs.

 

The backbone of the army, and expoed, no doubt, to a fearful attrition rate.

 

There must have been criteria of suitability that applied : obviously not so socially conspicuous as those pertaining to officers, but I would like to know more about this.

 

Phil 

I think it was more a case of the imposition of quite a rigid application of discipline, with emphasis on immaculate turnout in terms of uniform and personal equipment, plus high standards of foot and arms drill.  As I’ve mentioned above guardsmen commenced service on a 3-year contract with a majority then leaving, but some given the opportunity to sign-on and develop a longer career.  The regimental routine though was largely one of repetitive guard duty at the various Royal residences, plus the long-standing Bank of England picquet for some**.

A guardsman would spend the bulk of his 3-years doing that with only the annual training camp as respite.  It doesn’t always compare well with the experience undergone by a soldier in a good quality line infantry regiment battalion, who might over the same period have spent 18-months to 2-years with a battalion on the home establishment undergoing regular field training, followed by a posting to the battalion on foreign service where he might see some action with frontier tribesmen.  I’m not suggesting that this was always the case, but it wasn’t uncommon.

**this was a huge amount of drill and kit cleaning, that is hard for those who haven’t experienced it to grasp.  The scrubbing and re coating of buff leather equipment was constant and a daily chore.  Imagine yourself also, having a white woollen waist length jacket that was your duty dress for most days when you weren’t on guard or public duty.  That jacket had to be kept pristine white or you were in trouble.  That was before you worried about black balling boots and turning your brass insignia into a polished surface in which you can see your face.  It was tedious and never ending.

 

 

Edited 3 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

I seem to remember that, in the post WW2 film Tunes of Glory, RSM Riddick (Percy Herbert) was recognizably a Guardsman though wearing Scottish regimental headgear. Maybe he was wearing Guards shoulder titles. When transferred to, say, a New Army battalion, to what extent could a WW1 Guards NCO keep some Guards identity?

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, PhilB said:

I seem to remember that, in the post WW2 film Tunes of Glory, RSM Riddick (Percy Herbert) was recognizably a Guardsman though wearing Scottish regimental headgear. Maybe he was wearing Guards shoulder titles. When transferred to, say, a New Army battalion, to what extent could a WW1 Guards NCO keep some Guards identity?

Legally?  Absolutely none.  If a member of the unit and not simply temporarily attached to it, he was obliged to wear its insignia.

[tullybrone]

@FROGSMILE

I have a poor quality 1970’s photo (originally a 3ftx2ft studio photograph) of my gf (served 2nd CG 1905/08) wearing the white jacket mentioned above.

I’d always thought it was for “indoors” wear so thanks for posting the pictures showing it being used outdoors. Every day a learning day…..

Steve

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, tullybrone said:

@FROGSMILE

I have a poor quality 1970’s photo (originally a 3ftx2ft studio photograph) of my gf (served 2nd CG 1905/08) wearing the white jacket mentioned above.

I’d always thought it was for “indoors” wear so thanks for posting the pictures showing it being used outdoors. Every day a learning day…..

Steve

Yes it was an extraordinary garment and used by the Guards until around 1930 I think, although I’m not positive of the exact end date.  It goes back to at least the early 1800s and was originally used for pretty much all working dress that didn’t require full dress (coatees and then tunics), including drill practice, so hence - drill order (the term drill having at that time a catch all connotation such as field drill, arms drill, foot drill, pokey drill (i.e. arm strengthening exercise), etc.).  Battalion staff (sergeants) however, did not wear it (including the drill instructors) and were instead issued a ‘second tunic’, which although of quality scarlet cloth, had a much simpler collar and cuff with little gilt braid and no rank badge at all**.

**in the small b&w photo of a squad practising volley firing (cold snapping) you can see it worn by the SNCO in the background.

Edited 3 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[JMB1943]

1 hour ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

  We are also used to the Artists Rifles and HAC being "officer factories" (apologies to H.H.Kirst)

This is the very first reference that I have ever seen to this wonderful book since I read it in my twenties!

Regards,

JMB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 3 September , 2022 by JMB1943

[JMB1943]

The relatively poor build of many working class recruits (due to inadequate nutrition during their growing years) in the Great War is well-known.

This typically resulted in the average infantryman in a County regiment being noticeably shorter than their officers, and this is borne out by photos/films of the time.

The colourplate of the Coldstream Guards "A Parade in Drill Order" posted above by Frogsmile, shows what appears to me to be guardsmen of height equal to that of the inspecting officer. Of course the Guards did select from the tallest of the population.

I was particularly interested in the photo shown here, because it shows a private in white tunic, not only holding his rifle in an essentially vertical position but with the top of his head just visible. I am not sure of the period of this photo, but have taken the dimensions of rifle with fixed bayonet (The Lee-Enfield, Reynolds) for two different long-arms.

1910 Period: Short, Magazine Lee Enfield rifle w/fixed bayonet, Patt. 1907 = 56.9 inches; soldier is then ~5 ft 7 and one-half inches tall

Boer War Period: Magazine Lee Metford rifle w/fixed bayonet, Patt. 1903 = 61.5 inches; soldier is then ~6 ft and 1 inch tall.

The bayonet looks to me to be the Patt. 1903, rather than the 5 inch longer Patt. 1907, so the photo is more likely of the Boer War period than the 1910 period.

@FROGSMILE can you comment on the likely time period?

If we take the general Guards recruit as being closer 6 ft  than 5ft 5 inches, does that ring true with any records that may survive 100 yrs later ?

Regards,

JMB

[FROGSMILE]

21 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

The relatively poor build of many working class recruits (due to inadequate nutrition during their growing years) in the Great War is well-known.

This typically resulted in the average infantryman in a County regiment being noticeably shorter than their officers, and this is borne out by photos/films of the time.

The colourplate of the Coldstream Guards "A Parade in Drill Order" posted above by Frogsmile, shows what appears to me to be guardsmen of height equal to that of the inspecting officer. Of course the Guards did select from the tallest of the population.

I was particularly interested in the photo shown here, because it shows a private in white tunic, not only holding his rifle in an essentially vertical position but with the top of his head just visible. I am not sure of the period of this photo, but have taken the dimensions of rifle with fixed bayonet (The Lee-Enfield, Reynolds) for two different long-arms.

1910 Period: Short, Magazine Lee Enfield rifle w/fixed bayonet, Patt. 1907 = 56.9 inches; soldier is then ~5 ft 7 and one-half inches tall

Boer War Period: Magazine Lee Metford rifle w/fixed bayonet, Patt. 1903 = 61.5 inches; soldier is then ~6 ft and 1 inch tall.

The bayonet looks to me to be the Patt. 1903, rather than the 5 inch longer Patt. 1907, so the photo is more likely of the Boer War period than the 1910 period.

@FROGSMILE can you comment on the likely time period?

If we take the general Guards recruit as being closer 6 ft  than 5ft 5 inches, does that ring true with any records that may survive 100 yrs later ?

Regards,

JMB

We can ascertain from the type of pillbox forage cap that the photo was probably taken circa 1899-1900.  In the latter year it was gradually replaced by a Foot Guards version of what became known colloquially as the Brodrick Cap, the very first of that type to be issued.  The Line infantry (and some other arms) did not receive their version until the war was over, in 1902.  Ergo it would appear to be the Lee Metford rifle.  Knowing the army (and the Guards) the two men would have been specifically selected for the photograph given that it was to be published widely.

Interestingly in the colour print that you referred to depicting an inspection, the artist has correctly portrayed the men formed up and ‘sized’ in the manner favoured by the guards, of tallest men on the flanks, so that when viewed from either side the stature of the men is emphasised.  In line infantry regiments it was more common to have the tallest men on the right flank (shortest on the left) who would then appear closest to the saluting dias when marching past in slow and quick time in a clockwise direction (most commonly).

Edited 4 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Coldstreamer]

5 hours ago, PhilB said:

I seem to remember that, in the post WW2 film Tunes of Glory, RSM Riddick (Percy Herbert) was recognizably a Guardsman though wearing Scottish regimental headgear. Maybe he was wearing Guards shoulder titles. When transferred to, say, a New Army battalion, to what extent could a WW1 Guards NCO keep some Guards identity?

I have a medal group to a WOI Riddick Who was a coldstreamer in the 1960s!!

[PhilB]

What did you make of the Guards video above, Coldstreamer?

[Coldstreamer]

Good footage . people do find some good stuff to put on here 
 

I’m convinced i have medals to one of the officers featured 

[FROGSMILE]

On 02/09/2022 at 06:43, Coldstreamer said:

Going back to WW1, Some of the food packages and parcels that were sent over where very extravagant for the officers. I would say people Send what they could afford and other ranks probably had parcels that was affordable to their family

Yes indeed, I understand that several of the Guards messes ran an account with Fortnum and Mason and received regular hampers funded via individual member’s ‘extra-messing’ account.#

#which as you will know still exists today.

Edited 7 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

Not one I`d heard of before!

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Not one I`d heard of before!

You haven’t said what it is.  Cigars?

[AndrewSid]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

understand that several of the Guards messes ran an account with Fortnum and Mason and received regular hampers funded via individual member’s

The diaries reproduced in “15 rounds a minute” which detail the 2nd Bn the Grenadier  Guards reference in passing changes and requests to orders from Fortnum & Mason food parcels for officers. Good coffee receiving specific mention. 

[PhilB]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

You haven’t said what it is.  Cigars?

They`re the cigarettes advertised in the Fortnum and Mason brochure you posted! 

[FROGSMILE]

50 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

The diaries reproduced in “15 rounds a minute” which detail the 2nd Bn the Grenadier  Guards reference in passing changes and requests to orders from Fortnum & Mason food parcels for officers. Good coffee receiving specific mention. 

Yes I think that’s probably where I first read about it Andrew.

23 minutes ago, PhilB said:

They`re the cigarettes advertised in the Fortnum and Mason brochure you posted! 

I wonder if part of the reason that brand was chosen was the robust looking protective tin container.

Edited 7 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE