Guards Regiments: Officers commd. from the Ranks

[phil andrade]

37 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Nowadays yes.  We’re talking about WW1.  Too often the past is looked at through the prism of today.

Agreed.

 

The challenge here, however, is to reconcile this determination to uphold exclusivity with the enormous casualty rate of 1914-18.

The British were profligate in expenditure of officers, and I’m still wondering if the Guards had a singular tendency to delegate to NCOs in a manner that allowed the social traditions to survive the carnage.

 

Phil

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, phil andrade said:

Agreed.

 

The challenge here, however, is to reconcile this determination to uphold exclusivity with the enormous casualty rate of 1914-18.

The British were profligate in expenditure of officers, and I’m still wondering if the Guards had a singular tendency to delegate to NCOs in a manner that allowed the social traditions to survive the carnage.

 

Phil

Hello Phil,

Yes I believe that it was indeed “singular”, and specifically because of the unique role in relation to the Sovereign’s household.  A Guards officer might find himself one moment on the Western Front and then after wounding and recovery be an officer in waiting at Buckingham Palace or Windsor Castle.  This was unique and did not apply to regiments of the line, both cavalry and infantry, regardless of how socially exclusive they might be.  As an example, the 10th and 11th Hussars and the KRRC and RB in particular had significant numbers of aristocrats among their officer corps number, and were considered to have the highest social cachet.  That did not stop them though from commissioning rankers to fill gaps in their officer establishments.  They never had to worry about how an officer might fit into the Royal Household in the way that the Guards did.  Although full dress was ceased for the duration of the war many public duties continued with Guards at Buck House, Jimmy’s (St James Palace), the Bank of England and Windsor, to mention just the principals.  All of these required officers and soldiers of the Guards, although by the wars end great use of Reservists and downgraded officers was being made.

Edited 31 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[phil andrade]

Thanks for that post, FROGSMILE, it hadn’t occurred to me, and squares the circle, so to speak.

 

Phil

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

Thanks for that post, FROGSMILE, it hadn’t occurred to me, and squares the circle, so to speak.

 

Phil

I’m glad to help a little.  The way that the Brigade of Guards operated in peacetime is little understood given it’s exclusivity and discretion.  Unlike line regiments, prewar it was only in exceptional circumstances that they carried out garrison duty abroad (on one occasion it was as a punishment!) and most of their soldiers commenced service with a short, 3-year engagement with the colours, as opposed to the initial 7-years of the line.  It was constant high turnover.  Although some officers made a career of it a great many completed a short commission and then moved into their families business, or achieved an appointment somewhere through family influence and connections.  For many landed families it was a rite of passage to serve for a short time and then swiftly move on.   Also, unlike in line regiments Guards officers rarely lived in their mess and instead lived either, in the family home if it was commutable, or rented a mews apartment where they could socialise in the manner that their class was accustomed to.

Edited 31 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Coldstreamer]

20 hours ago, AndrewSid said:

 

Did officer also have a height requirement as per the men? 

I don’t believe so but I know it was different to that of the men.  

5’3 Is the shortest offices height I’ve seen when looking at service papers

[Coldstreamer]

Thanks for sharing the video.

I’m pretty sure the officer at 2 minutes 35 is called Mitchell Who has been likened to Lord Lucan. 
I

 

[phil andrade]

Bob Boothby had all the right credentials, and was commissioned into the Brigade of Guards  in 1918, just before he was due to go up to Oxford to study History. He was too young to see active service, but his story shows that there were still enough toffs coming forward to fill the gaps even in 1918, and the Guards’ social criteria were still being fulfilled, and their pedigree upheld.

 

Phil

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

   Anything related  to Bob Boothby must be qualified by the words of his  first cousin, the eminent broadcaster  Ludovic Kennedy- what  he has to say about Boothby  in his memoir "On My Way to the Club"  (an excellent read)  does not come out as a glowing character reference.

    Boothby/Kennedy were at base Edinburgh middle class-  Was Boothby  destined for the Scots Guards?

Apparently he only served in the Guards Brigade Officer Cadet Battalion and left before receiving his commission (presumably because the war ended).  See: http://guardsmagazine.com/futurePub/01_drumhorse.html

Edited 1 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[phil andrade]

Mistake on my part about Boothby : sorry.  Not properly commissioned, then, but surely on the brink of it ?

 

But doesn't the story indicate that there were youngsters with the requisite social attributes being prepared to step into the gaps ?

 

Phil

Edited 1 September , 2022 by phil andrade

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

Mistake on my part about Boothby : sorry.  Not properly commissioned, then, but surely on the brink of it ?

 

But doesn't the story indicate that there were youngsters with the requisite social attributes being prepared to step into the gaps ?

 

Phil

Yes on the brink I think Phil.  My only information is the book concerned, but it has a high reputation for accuracy and the author Joll is much respected.

[phil andrade]

The phenomena of “ Gentleman Ranker” ( i.e.Donald Hankey) and “ Temporary Gentleman “ (i.e Alan Johnson’s Grandfather) were not applicable to the Guards, then ?

That vignette we had posted about the Coldstream(?) from the mid 1960s alludes to the “ mystique” of a virtual caste system.

If it survived the Great War intact, it could endure anything !

 

Phil

Edited 1 September , 2022 by phil andrade

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

The phenomena of “ Gentleman Ranker” ( i.e.Donald Hankey) and “ Temporary Gentleman “ (i.e Alan Johnson’s Grandfather) were not applicable to the Guards, then ?

That vignette we had posted about the Coldstream(?) from the mid 1960s alludes to the “ mystique” of a virtual caste system.

If it survived the Great War intact, it could endure anything !

 

Phil

I think it’s fair to say that although the Brigade of Guards continues to follow some broad principles, it has evolved just like any long standing institution.  For example it’s officer corps is no longer stuffed with aristocrats, nor even significant numbers of land owners.  At best the difference would be largely the still prolific numbers of the Public School educated.  The book I linked also emphasises all the diverse characters that have served in and alongside its ranks. 

Edited 1 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

The idea of the “aura” of the Guards officer as demonstrated in the video seems to have survived till after WW2. I would date that video around the 60s?

[FROGSMILE]

17 hours ago, PhilB said:

The idea of the “aura” of the Guards officer as demonstrated in the video seems to have survived till after WW2. I would date that video around the 60s?

Yes, the No2 Dress that the soldiers are wearing was first on general issue in 1964, and initially designated “Suit, No2 Dress”, still using the old Imperial measurements and numbered Sizes unchanged since Queen Victoria’s reign.  The Guards were the first to receive the new uniform so the film probably dates from the mid-1960s.

Initially there were no NATO stock numbers, but in the 1970s the labels were changed with a new designation “Uniform Man’s No2 Dress” and the old sizes were abandoned in favour of metric and a NATO stock number was added.

In 1980 an entirely new pattern No2 Dress uniform was issued whose most immediate identifying feature was the absence of pleats on the breast pockets.

Edited 2 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[phil andrade]

Undoubtedly from the mid 1960s, because I clearly remember, in the film,  an officer quizzing a Guardsman about regimental history, and alluded to 1656, following up with “ about three hundred and ten years ago.”

The role of the Sergeant was, apparently, to administer bollockings at each and every response made by the poor rankers.

Very much in character- indeed, caricature- with the image of elegant, understated  officers and assiduous and “ in your face “ NCOs .

 

Phil

 

 

 

Edited 1 September , 2022 by phil andrade

[FROGSMILE]

53 minutes ago, phil andrade said:

Undoubtedly from the mid 1960s, because I clearly remember, in the film,  an officer quizzing a Guardsman about regimental history, and alluded to 1656, following up with “ about one hundred and ten years ago.”

The role of the Sergeant was, apparently, to administer bollockings at each and every response made by the poor rankers.

Very much in character- indeed, caricature- with the image of elegant, understated  officers and assiduous and “ in your face “ NCOs .

 

Phil

 

 

 

I think that you have encapsulated the scene very well.

[PhilB]

I do wonder if the particular recruits were chosen so as to emphasize the officer/OR divide.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, PhilB said:

I do wonder if the particular recruits were chosen so as to emphasize the officer/OR divide.

That sounds a bit too much like some kind of conspiracy theory! 

[phil andrade]

It definitely had a choreographed feel to it.

This was only ten years after Suez ; some might have sought reassurance from the depiction: others would have seen it as ridiculous.

It makes a surreal contrast with Jimmy Hendrix and The Who.

 

Phil

 

 

[stiletto_33853]

Interesting,

My grandfather transferred from the 2nd Life Guards to the Scots Guards in 1923 after serving the entire war in the Life Guards, going to Shanghai with the Scots Guards then onto Hong Kong. I was fortunate to spend a lot of time with my grandfather, even going on my first battlefield trips with him, before he passed away. He mentioned to me that the Scots Guards used to be known as the Jockney Guards at that time as most of the recruits were from London and that the officers were not up to standard of Life Guards officers.

 

Andy

Edited 1 September , 2022 by stiletto_33853

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, phil andrade said:

It definitely had a choreographed feel to it.

This was only ten years after Suez ; some might have sought reassurance from the depiction: others would have seen it as ridiculous.

It makes a surreal contrast with Jimmy Hendrix and The Who.

 

Phil

 

 

They were two different worlds.  Literally.

[Coldstreamer]

Looking at lack of medal ribbons i would agree its long after ww2 so 6os makes sense 

[Coldstreamer]

Going back to WW1, Some of the food packages and parcels that were sent over where very extravagant for the officers. I would say people Send what they could afford and other ranks probably had parcels that was affordable to their family

[JMB1943]

Thanks to all who have contributed.

Your answers pretty much confirm my preconceived thoughts on the subject.

Regards,

JMB

[Coldstreamer]

Whilst tidying up my library I have looked in a book that explains to parents of potential Coldstream guards officers the costs. 
The book was printed just after the war in 1921. One of the extracts

 

One of the extracts

It has been found that a young officer who exercises a moderate control of his expenditure can live comfortably on an allowance of £250 a year in addition to his pay.

Pay started at £228 after tax