Guards Regiments: Officers commd. from the Ranks

[JMB1943]

During the latter part of the war, experienced NCOs in the County regiments were commissioned as 2/Lts and transferred to  a different battalion or regiment.

Did the Guards (and other socially elite units e.g., KRRC, Rifle Brigade etc) accept such 2/Lts??

Regards,

JMB

 

[AndrewSid]

JMB,

I don’t have an answer as such but in my limited research I haven’t seen a man who went to one of those units from the ranks.
 

I would add that the size of the Guards regiments never grew to the size observed with some of the county regiments.  According to the LLT, Grenadier and Coldstream raised 4 battalions, Irish and Scots two (Welsh had a single Bn from 1915).  As such raising and sustaining the 30 or so officers for such a force was perhaps significantly resourced from the available “elite” of society. 
 

Having recently read “fifteen rounds per minute’ I’d add that the 2nd Bn the Grenadier Guards deployed to France with 29 officers in August 1914 and by November had had 31 killed or wounded. Only two of the original officer remained. 
 

Hopefully someone with more knowledge will assist soon.

Edited 30 August , 2022 by AndrewSid

[Coldstreamer]

The medals I have to men commission from the ranks of other regiments into the Coldstream Guards seem to have quite affluent backgrounds

From a Coldstream perspective, they did commission from the ranks.

Off the top of my head , From the medals I have collected, men  who were commissioned from senior NCOs that stayed in the regiment seemed to become quartermaster Lieutenant Captain and majors. The others all moved out of the regiment either straight away or quite soon after

I always understood it that it was purely down to money, wasn’t cheap to be a guards officer and having a private income on top of your army pay was almost certainly required.
 

as an aside , Cavalry officer might need several horses including a polo horse which isn’t going to be cheap

Edited 30 August , 2022 by Coldstreamer

[Coldstreamer]

And the Colstream did have a fifth Battalion, but that stayed at home

[PhilB]

2 hours ago, Coldstreamer said:

And the Colstream 

Tut tut - and you a Coldstreamer!

[Coldstreamer]

The shame. I blame it entirely on tech as I have a dislocated shoulder and I’m using voice to type. 

[AndrewSid]

2 hours ago, Coldstreamer said:

And the Colstream did have a fifth Battalion, but that stayed at home

Very true. As did the others.  I only counted the ones deployed overseas.

I think the private income element would have ruled out 99.99% of the adult male population. 

Edited 30 August , 2022 by AndrewSid

[Coldstreamer]

2 hours ago, Coldstreamer said:

And the Colstream did have a fifth Battalion, but that stayed at home

[PhilB]

7 hours ago, Coldstreamer said:

 

I always understood it that it was purely down to money, wasn’t cheap to be a guards officer and having a private income on top of your army pay was almost certainly required.
 

Do you think the expensive lifestyle would continue during the war when most officers would be in F&F? 

[phil andrade]

You’ll find - I think - that the Guard’s regiments tended to rely on their NCOs to protect the traditional social elitism of their units.

This is not something that I know.  It’s something I suspect.

if memory serves me, I conducted research into some casualty figures , and was a bit surprised to see that, while many of the Guards officers bled and died, there was a strikingly high attrition of the NCOs, and I came away with the impression that the aristocracy, while leading from the front, was sustained by an equally or even greater sacrificial fervour displayed by their sergeants.

This image is consistent with a hierarchy that was determined to uphold traditional social distinctions.

Isn’t it a trope that the Butler was always the biggest snob in the House ?

 

Phil

 

 

Edited 30 August , 2022 by phil andrade

[Coldstreamer]

Looking at  CWGC The database will show me how many corporals were killed straight away but the result for “sarges” depends on whether you use g or a j to spell it ! Something I Had not noticed before

[PhilB]

My brother (not a Guardsman) spent some time at Pirbright in the 50s and was struck by the lack of camaraderie between the officers and the rest compared to other regiments. A young officer explains here:-

The only Guards officer I`ve spoken to is Ben Wallace - a very pleasant chap.

Edited 31 August , 2022 by PhilB

[AndrewSid]

A fascinating topic.  The quality and regimental strength of the Guards as a pre war elite unit is well established.

The question and challenge is how was that maintained through the war.  The dilution rate of officers and men for the deployed battalions in 1914 alone exceeded 100%.  Maintaining those standards through drafts must have been challenging and goes back to the original  question of officer replacements. With soon to be 13 battalions in the line the requirement for ex officers and new recruits of the correct background to be trained and sent to France was of course a pressing priority.  Did they have enough of the right people or when/if did they start to run out?  Understanding that may help the understanding of the need or otherwise to commission from the ranks. 
 

Coldstreamers comment on regimental men being commissioned as QMs is really useful.

Did officer also have a height requirement as per the men? 

Edited 31 August , 2022 by AndrewSid

[stiletto_33853]

Regarding the Rifle Brigade,

Yes they did accept commissioned OR's into their officer Corps from a variety of Regiments, although later in the war a lot seem to have come from the Territorial battalions of The Rifle Brigade, 1/5th, 10th, 28th Londons etc. also good few from the London Regiment and a lot commissioned from RB ranks.

i.e. 

ADAM, Peter, 3rd RB Kia 31/7/17, ex 3429 19th Royal Fusiliers (Leys School)

AINLEY, John Hirst, 1st RB KIA 21/6/18, ex 3285 West Riding Regiment (Oundle)

ANSTIE, Edward Basil, 2nd RB KIA 22/3/18, ex 35820 Somerset L.I. (Repton)

BAGNALL, George Barry 13th RB KIA 23//4/17, ex 49960 10th Royal Fusiliers (Charterhouse)

BUXTON, Andrew Richard, 3rd RB KIA 7/6/17, ex 2496 21st Royal Fusiliers (Harrow & Trinity College, Cambridge)

CLARKE, Arundel Geoffrey, 1st RB KIA 1/7/16, ex 6026 Royal Fusiliers (Winchester & New College, Oxford)

CLIVE-SMITH, Colin Metcalfe, 12th RB KIA 24/3/18, ex S/22360 Seaforth Highlanders (Queens College, Oxford)

 

Etc etc

However quite a few of these had not served overseas with their original unit and were commissioned before going overseas after receiving a good education. Another note is that I have 492 Rifle Brigade OR's commissioned on my records. A lot commissioned into the RB and a good few back into their original battalions.

Of note also is that any Officer, even during wartime availability coming through the normal commission route had to be recommended by an existing or ex Officer of the Regiment (see attachment)

 

Andy

Edited 31 August , 2022 by stiletto_33853

[PhilB]

1 hour ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

  A curiosity is that of the 3 long established guards regiments the Scots Guards took very few indeed.   Reason? (Apart from only 2 battalions)

Maybe the Scots Guards preferred native Scots who’d be much less likely to join the London based Artists’ Rifles.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Maybe the Scots Guards preferred native Scots who’d be much less likely to join the London based Artists’ Rifles.

I too think that is a likely reason, Phil.  Although often English educated, I understand that most came from well-to-do Scottish, or Border families.  They probably came from OTBs in Edinburgh.

Edited 31 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

In addition, I believe any Englishmen would have been exposed to pipe music and Scottish dancing.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, PhilB said:

In addition, I believe any Englishmen would have been exposed to pipe music and Scottish dancing.

Yes I don’t think they’d have adjusted well to the fancy dress outfits.

[stiletto_33853]

5 hours ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

  Do you have a reference  as to where this volume is located Andy?    Looks useful.  I have 2RB commissioned-up that I would'nt mind checking- one was a county class cricketer, the other quasi gentry as the family were long-term brewery owners in Oxfordshire.

Hi Alan,

it is listed as Army book 26 in the Hampshire Archives as most RB material has ended up, list number D/1572. Who are you looking for?? I quite possibly have info on them.

 

Andy

Edited 31 August , 2022 by stiletto_33853

[Derek Black]

On 30/08/2022 at 00:23, JMB1943 said:

During the latter part of the war, experienced NCOs in the County regiments were commissioned as 2/Lts and transferred to  a different battalion or regiment.

Did the Guards (and other socially elite units e.g., KRRC, Rifle Brigade etc) accept such 2/Lts??

Regards,

JMB

This has been an interesting thread. 
 

In the 1914 and 14/15 star roll books for the NCO’s and privates of the Black Watch, roughly 11,000 individuals, that’s not including those in other regiments roll books, not a single man commissioned from the ranks went to a Guards regiment. 

There were a few who went to the KRRC and RB though. 
 

Cheers,

Derek. 

[FROGSMILE]

The social aspect of being accepted for a commission in the Guards was overwhelming, and in our less deferential society, where the aristocracy has been largely excluded from the influence that they once held, that seems to have been lost to National consciousness and memory.  It was the job of the Regimental Colonel to interview and review every applicant.  Applicants had to be from the right family background (breeding**), have sufficient wealth to keep themselves in the manner expected of a Guards officer, and have no whiff of scandal hanging over them.  As far as the Brigade of Guards were concerned officers from the ranks were for one purpose only, that of Quarter-Master, regardless of how promising the ranker applicants might be.  For a long time, although accepted as honorary members of the officers’ mess (i.e. with honorary officers commissions) the honorary status excluded them from some aspects and facilities of mess life.  In such circumstances it is simply unconscionable that a ranker from a line regiment, who as a Guards officer (not QM) might have to take up any of a number of intimate, formalised duties in relation to the Sovereign, would be acceptable.

**or in exceptional circumstances influence.  Rudyard Kipling was a personal friend of King George V.  There was nothing Irish about the Kiplings but the Irish Guards was the most junior regiment in the brigade and still building its social and military reputation.  It’s unlikely I think that John Kipling would have been accepted for any of the more senior regiments.

Edited 31 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

A man can be commissioned from the ranks into the Guards as Director of Music.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, PhilB said:

A man can be commissioned from the ranks into the Guards as Director of Music.

Nowadays yes.  We’re talking about WW1.  Too often the past is looked at through the prism of today.

[PhilB]

All the Guards regiments of WW1 had Hon Lts as Directors of Music - where did they come from?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PhilB said:

All the Guards regiments of WW1 had Hon Lts as Directors of Music - where did they come from?

As there was no Corps of Army Music back then, the Directors of Music were selected by appointment as vacancies occurred Phil, with applicants invited from students who had passed the Royal School of Military Music Kneller Hall with the highest levels of assessment.  They were an exclusive strata of musicians with the best moving between regiments and in rare cases even Royal Marines moved over to the Foot Guards, whose staff bands were larger than most Army bands other than the Royal Artillery (which also had staff bands).  These men were not soldiers, but musicians and so to be fair I don’t think they fit into the ranker officer category that this thread is discussing.  Otherwise you’re comparing apples and oranges.

Edited 31 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE