48th, 49th, 50th Field Ambulances. Reninghelst New Military Cemeter

[Mick M]

54 minutes ago, PRC said:

While there could have been a mixed group of mobilised Derby Scheme and deferred conscripts who were called up at the same time, (the potential pool of Derby Scheme men must have been rapidly decreasing by this stage), I'm still inclined to go with a Derby Scheme man and assume a transcription error in the Surrey Recruitment lists.

So timeline something like this:-

December 1915 - enlists under the Derby Scheme, serves 24 hours and this is sent home and posted to the Army Reserve.
c19th February 1917 - sent notice of mobilisation with a period to sort his affairs out.
March 3rd - 11th 1917 - reports to his local depot and is posted to the 3rd Battalion, Queens Own (Royal West Surrey Regiment)
March 1917 - 22nd May 1917 - basic training for 8-9 weeks in the UK with the 3rd Battalion.
23rd May 1917 - lands in France as part of a draft intended for a Battalion of Queens Own (Royal West Surrey Regiment), reaching 38 Infantry Base Depot that day or the next. Initially posted to the 11th Battalion. LLT has 38 IBD at Etaples - i.e. the Bull Ring, scene of a mutiny in September 1917 as a result of the conditions and brutal treatment handed out to men passing through.
May 1917 to 6th June 1917. Undergoing additional in-theatre training to familiarise men with the latest practice in the front line.
6th June 1917 Some or all of the original draft is re-posted to the 13th Battalion, Royal Fusiliers.
9th June 1917. That group joins up with the 13th Battalion in the field.

Does that seem a likely fit?
Cheers,
Peter

Peter, that seems most likely from all the clues. I believe by virtue of his age etc he was a Derby Scheme man, he had a fixed home, family and employment it's hardly likely he dodged the requirement to register. Taking option B then gives the right time scale for everything else to drop neatly into place.....awesome thank you.

 

Mick.

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Does that seem a likely fit?

V.Good summary although I'm not yet convinced about Derby but will look further!!

[Mick M]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

V.Good summary although I'm not yet convinced about Derby but will look further!!

Just for my own learning; was it not compulsory to register under the Derby Scheme or did the individual have a choice? I ask as I thought that someone one in the age parameters in 1915 was obliged to register.

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, Mick M said:

Just for my own learning; was it not compulsory to register under the Derby Scheme or did the individual have a choice? I ask as I thought that someone one in the age parameters in 1915 was obliged to register.

LongLongTrail gives this detail.

"The Group System (Derby Scheme) - The Long, Long Trail" http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

Thus National Registration was compulsory but Derby Scheme Attestation was voluntary! What I am vague on is if a 38 year old married man apparently attested 6/6/16 but was seemingly not mobilised until Feb 1917, does this fit with a conscription class? The attestation date is too late for Derby. Is it an error in Surrey Recruitment Register? 

Charlie 

Thoughts Peter? @PRC

Edited 18 July , 2022 by charlie962

[Mick M]

5 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

LongLongTrail gives this detail.

"The Group System (Derby Scheme) - The Long, Long Trail" http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

Thus National Registration was compulsory but Derby Scheme Attestation was voluntary! What I am vague on is if a 38 year old married man apparently attested 6/6/16 but was seemingly not mobilised until Feb 1917, does this fit with a conscription class? The attestation date is too late for Derby. Is it an error in Surrey Recruitment Register? 

Charlie

Thank you, i had read the scheme but that single point eluded me..

Mick.

[Mick M]

Thank you one and all, the response to my post is outstanding, I have learnt a lot not just about Richard but about many related points and some more research skills.

[charlie962]

26 minutes ago, Mick M said:

have learnt a lot

If you discover more about Richard then please do tell us by adding to this thread, even if it is not posing a question.

Charlie

[Mick M]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

If you discover more about Richard then please do tell us by adding to this thread, even if it is not posing a question.

Charlie

I certainly will. I have spent the evening trawling all 29 names in the same draft from the rolls, not a single file?

Mick.

[charlie962]

40 minutes ago, Mick M said:

not a single file?

When you put in a service number, did you precede it with a * because a lot may have been prefixed G/  ?

[Mick M]

10 hours ago, charlie962 said:

When you put in a service number, did you precede it with a * because a lot may have been prefixed G/  ?

No I put it in as per role with the G...but I did open anything matching the name.

[Mick M]

I have given the war diary a further try, about all that is readable is in the margin 'Locre. I think they re- enter the line on the night of 6th September 1917 as does 10th Battalion R Fus whose diary is in the same file and typewritten. On 5th and 6th Sept. The whole of 10th Battalion were digging a cable trench NE of St Eloi.

Locre being at the rear as a rest location, (I can't work out how far from the front), it's likely Richard was injured on a working party so all options open but most likely artillery fire.

 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Mick M said:

No I put it in as per role with the G...but I did open anything matching the name.

When this first came up I had a run through about 40 service numbers round that of Richards. As well as G\ there were a couple who had records with just the G and service number, no gap, and some that had matches with GS\ and GSnumber. I was using the free search on FindMyPast and using the regimental search number box which returns only straight matches. It was when I realised I was looking at 5 variations potentially for each man, if you just include number only, that I stopped searching.

Ancestry tends to be a lot more flexible - it has to be with all the indexing errors - and can overload you with matches. You then need subscription access to work out most if not all are irrelevant. You can go for the exact match option but that will be very likely to exclude the records you want due to their tendency to introduce a superfluous gap in the service number or an irrelevant comma.

Cheers,
Peter

[Mick M]

17 minutes ago, PRC said:

When this first came up I had a run through about 40 service numbers round that of Richards. As well as G\ there were a couple who had records with just the G and service number, no gap, and some that had matches with GS\ and GSnumber. I was using the free search on FindMyPast and using the regimental search number box which returns only straight matches. It was when I realised I was looking at 5 variations potentially for each man, if you just include number only, that I stopped searching.

Ancestry tends to be a lot more flexible - it has to be with all the indexing errors - and can overload you with matches. You then need subscription access to work out most if not all are irrelevant. You can go for the exact match option but that will be very likely to exclude the records you want due to their tendency to introduce a superfluous gap in the service number or an irrelevant comma.

Cheers,
Peter

It is worth a further try, thank you Peter, (its to hot to play outside anyway!).

[TEW]

Just to chip in a little more.

Quite often the number indexing by both sites stems from the Attestation sheet, FMP are better at seeking out numbers from inside sheets. I've not followed the drafting from IBD part in much detail but I think you have a draft that was re-numbered to the G or GS etc. for Queen's?

They may have records under their former or later numbers if they transferred again, perhaps to Labour Corps.

I have found men indexed under a random number that appears on a sheet that may be an army form number, a hospital list number, pension reference etc.

TEW

[Mick M]

30 minutes ago, TEW said:

Just to chip in a little more.

Quite often the number indexing by both sites stems from the Attestation sheet, FMP are better at seeking out numbers from inside sheets. I've not followed the drafting from IBD part in much detail but I think you have a draft that was re-numbered to the G or GS etc. for Queen's?

They may have records under their former or later numbers if they transferred again, perhaps to Labour Corps.

I have found men indexed under a random number that appears on a sheet that may be an army form number, a hospital list number, pension reference etc.

TEW

Useful tip ta, I've been working from the R Fus roll, oddly his medal card has no prefix for his RWS number but has GS against the FUSILIER no. I take it that means General Service and no clue as to whether he was a Derby volunteer or 1916 conscript? The R Fus roll only uses a G prefix.

Edited 19 July , 2022 by Mick M
Add info.

[Mick M]

Found a bit more in the diary. On 1.9.17 the batn moved from Chinese Wall camp to BIRR camp and in the margin is written Locre. I have found reference to BIRR in Ireland and a BIRR Crossroads which I think is Locre area.

From 1st to 6th Sept. The batn formed working parties, on one occasion, but this is very faint, I think bombs were dropped in the vicinity of the camp I can make out by 3 -4 (I think it is then aircraft) but I'm sure no reference is made to casualties and it looks like the author at this stage is not recording casualty figures in the diary.

It mentions map 28 if anyone can locate that please, or if anyone can determine more from this entry it would help...

 

Mick.

[WhiteStarLine]

5 minutes ago, Mick M said:

mentions map 28 ilocre a

Mick, your extract is too small and faint to read but Sheet 28 is the Ypres area and Birr Cross Roads are close to Hooge.  However, there is a Birr Barracks near Locre and I think this is what you want:

 

[Mick M]

16 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Mick, your extract is too small and faint to read but Sheet 28 is the Ypres area and Birr Cross Roads are close to Hooge.  However, there is a Birr Barracks near Locre and I think this is what you want:

 

That's perfect...thanks. the original is no better unfortunately, I've been ruining my eyes for about a week to glean this much....its annoying as the sister btn, the 10th diary is typed with great detail...but it has helped as a comparison tool.

Mick.

[TEW]

1/9/17 had a full moon and clear sky making aircraft night bombing raids possible for some nights either side. I did note entries in other diaries for enemy aircraft activity and EA bombing.

TEW

[charlie962]

Soldier's Effects, War Gratuity.

"Ancestry.co.uk - UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929" https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60506/images/42511_6117462_0135-00047?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=4a8f55a7ab7828ae4a121c737f5b85f7&pId=141497

One for @ss002d6252

The 3 pound gratuity suggests less than a years service. In turn suggesting that service counted only from mobilisation date, not from earlier attestation date.

question for Craig- would this be true for a Derby man,?

charlie

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

question for Craig- would this be true for a Derby man,?

It would be the date he was finally mobilised for service. Any period on the reserve was ignored (as was the 1 day before they were placed on the reserve).

Craig

[Mick M]

2 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

It would be the date he was finally mobilised for service. Any period on the reserve was ignored (as was the 1 day before they were placed on the reserve).

Craig

I found a soldier in the same draft killed a month later and his gratuity was £4, is that clue as £5 would have made it 12 months?

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, Mick M said:

I found a soldier in the same draft killed a month later and his gratuity was £4, is that clue as £5 would have made it 12 months?

A type 1 gratuity for a private would be net (in most cases) so a paid £4 would be £6 gross - for 14 months of services.

Craig

[Mick M]

4 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

A type 1 gratuity for a private would be net (in most cases) so a paid £4 would be £6 gross - for 14 months of services.

Craig

Is the figure in red in the soldiers affects ledger gross or net?

Mick.

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, Mick M said:

Is the figure in red in the soldiers affects ledger gross or net?

Mick.

It depends on the type of entry, the date of entry, and the type of service (amongst other issues).

Craig