48th, 49th, 50th Field Ambulances. Reninghelst New Military Cemeter

[Mick M]

This cemetery if the resting place on 65685 Richard George Sutton 13th Battalion Royal Fusiliers who died of wounds. The three field ambulances in the title served this division and I assume Richard died in one of those. The War diary is illegible so no clues there but I can't see and reference to raids etc so most likely a wound received in a trench tour of duty.

 

Is it possible to give an idea of time scale in the casualty chain from wound to death?

I'm guestimating his call up date about may 17 from similar numbers which means he was very new to the front line.

I have pension index card etc.

Edited 17 July , 2022 by Mick M

[PRC]

5 hours ago, Mick M said:

Is it possible to give an idea of time scale in the casualty chain from wound to death?

Not really, but to have got to this stage and to be mortally wounded then probably you are talking hours \ days, not weeks. If a man could be saved and needed emergency surgery he'd be moved on to a Casualty Clearing Station. But the delay could come in removing him from the battlefield, or the Battalion's position. And of course a man could arrive in such a state that moving him any further would only speed up his death - indeed in some cases the move to the field ambulance could have seen them dead on arrival. One wonders if the temptation then was not to even show them as being treated by the field ambulance. Others were deemed unsaveable and sedated to ease their final hours but may have clung to life. Addtionally the wounds, (or even ill-health) he arrived with may not have been the wounds that killed him. Operating relatively close to the front line, long-range shelling and air-raids were a fact of life.

5 hours ago, Mick M said:

I'm guestimating his call up date about may 17 from similar numbers which means he was very new to the front line.

Does your guesstimate include that he was part of a draft from The Queens (Royal West Surrey Regiment). Soldiers Died in the Great War shows he was formerly 39743 with them. A quick check of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission shows the earliest near number death as G/39769 Private T.J. Beech who died on the home front serving with the 3rd Battalion on the 11th March 1917, so likely Richard joined up before that.

Cheers,
Peter

[Mick M]

27 minutes ago, PRC said:

Not really, but to have got to this stage and to be mortally wounded then probably you are talking hours \ days, not weeks. If a man could be saved and needed emergency surgery he'd be moved on to a Casualty Clearing Station. But the delay could come in removing him from the battlefield, or the Battalion's position. And of course a man could arrive in such a state that moving him any further would only speed up his death - indeed in some cases the move to the field ambulance could have seen them dead on arrival. One wonders if the temptation then was not to even show them as being treated by the field ambulance. Others were deemed unsaveable and sedated to ease their final hours but may have clung to life. Addtionally the wounds, (or even ill-health) he arrived with may not have been the wounds that killed him. Operating relatively close to the front line, long-range shelling and air-raids were a fact of life.

Does your guesstimate include that he was part of a draft from The Queens (Royal West Surrey Regiment). Soldiers Died in the Great War shows he was formerly 39743 with them. A quick check of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission shows the earliest near number death as G/39769 Private T.J. Beech who died on the home front serving with the 3rd Battalion on the 11th March 1917, so likely Richard joined up before that.

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter on both points, that real education for me...my guess was based on the £3 War gratuity being about 6 months, but that's wrong the £3 was a minimum payment until a year which would have been £5 ...so your quick check is more accurate.

Very grateful

Mick.

[PRC]

There may be some insight into how this transfer from the Queens came about by looking at the surviving service records for 65675 Harold Robert Shakeshaft, Royal Fusiliers. I don’t subscribe to the likes of Ancestry, FindMyPast or Fold3 so can’t check them out.

The Victory Medal and British War Medal Service Medal Roll for the Royal Fusiliers is among the most detailed, showing for each man Theatre and periods served there broken down by Battalion. Those are only on Ancestry.

I take it you got the amount of his War Gratuity from the Register of Soldiers Effects? Can I assume it had nothing helpful to say about place of death?

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

Soldier's Effects merely says Belg !

You could try looking at the field ambulance war diaries that are free to download from Discovery Nat Archives if you register.

Links are:

"Search results: Wo95 "50 field ambulance" | The National Archives" https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Wo95+"50+field+ambulance"

"Search results: Wo95 "48 field ambulance" | The National Archives" https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Wo95+"48+field+ambulance"

"Search results: Wo95 "49 field ambulance" | The National Archives" https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Wo95+"49+field+ambulance"&_sd=&_ed=&_hb=

[charlie962]

The medal roll gives you his overseas dates.

RWS. 23/5-8/6/17.

13RF 9/6-5/9/17 

The RWS bit looks to me like a short stay at Infantry Base Depot (eg the bullring at Etaples) before allocation to a frontline unit? Look at the two men above him on the same roll, with the same short RWS spell. Perhaps one of them or someone similar on neighbouring pages has a surviving record to help interpret?

"Ancestry.co.uk - UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920" https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_611411_5535-00081?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=655b3f47de15b8c44f17360ddfb73c04&pId=3369148

 

Edited 18 July , 2022 by charlie962

[Mick M]

13 hours ago, PRC said:

There may be some insight into how this transfer from the Queens came about by looking at the surviving service records for 65675 Harold Robert Shakeshaft, Royal Fusiliers. I don’t subscribe to the likes of Ancestry, FindMyPast or Fold3 so can’t check them out.

The Victory Medal and British War Medal Service Medal Roll for the Royal Fusiliers is among the most detailed, showing for each man Theatre and periods served there broken down by Battalion. Those are only on Ancestry.

I take it you got the amount of his War Gratuity from the Register of Soldiers Effects? Can I assume it had nothing helpful to say about place of death?

Cheers,
Peter

I have all my info from Ancestry, his pension card just says died of wounds. I'm assuming those FAs due to his burial place...I will chase up those records but I think his Queens service was for basic training as they had 3 reserve battalions in the UK. I think he was a Derby Scheme recruit who took option B due to his age, in 1915 he would have been obliged to register.

Thanks again.

21 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Soldier's Effects merely says Belg !

You could try looking at the field ambulance war diaries that are free to download from Discovery Nat Archives if you register.

Links are:

"Search results: Wo95 "50 field ambulance" | The National Archives" https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Wo95+"50+field+ambulance"

"Search results: Wo95 "48 field ambulance" | The National Archives" https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Wo95+"48+field+ambulance"

"Search results: Wo95 "49 field ambulance" | The National Archives" https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Wo95+"49+field+ambulance"&_sd=&_ed=&_hb=

Good idea thank you.

[Mick M]

17 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

The medal roll gives you his overseas dates.

RWS. 23/5-8/6/17.

13RF 9/6-5/9/17 

The RWS bit looks to me like a short stay at Infantry Base Depot (eg the bullring at Etaples) before allocation to a frontline unit? Look at the two men above him on the same roll, with the same short RWS spell. Perhaps one of them or someone similar on neighbouring pages has a surviving record to help interpret?

"Ancestry.co.uk - UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920" https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_611411_5535-00081?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=655b3f47de15b8c44f17360ddfb73c04&pId=3369148

 

There are pages following these 3 all sent 13 R Fus....I hadn't noticed that thanks.

[charlie962]

I think this is him in the Surrey recruitment ledgers on Findmypast.

B 1878, living 380 Merton Rd ( same address as pension).

A 38 year old  married builder who attested (conscripted) 3rd RWS 6/6/16. 

"Record Transcription: Surrey Recruitment Registers 1908-1933 | findmypast.co.uk" https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FSURREG%2F00047966

 

Edited 18 July , 2022 by charlie962
Spelling

[Mick M]

28 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

The medal roll gives you his overseas dates.

RWS. 23/5-8/6/17.

13RF 9/6-5/9/17 

The RWS bit looks to me like a short stay at Infantry Base Depot (eg the bullring at Etaples) before allocation to a frontline unit? Look at the two men above him on the same roll, with the same short RWS spell. Perhaps one of them or someone similar on neighbouring pages has a surviving record to help interpret?

"Ancestry.co.uk - UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920" https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_611411_5535-00081?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=655b3f47de15b8c44f17360ddfb73c04&pId=3369148

 

The medal roll shows him in France from 23.5.17 and transfer to R fus on 9.6.17. Can I assume basic training in UK prior to 23rd May?

5 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I think this is him in the Surrey recruitmen ledgers on Findmypast.

B 1878, living 380 Merton Rd ( same address as pension).

A 38 year old  married builder who attested (conscripted) 3rd RWS 6/6/16. 

"Record Transcription: Surrey Recruitment Registers 1908-1933 | findmypast.co.uk" https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FSURREG%2F00047966

 

That's him thanks.

[charlie962]

Just now, Mick M said:

The medal roll shows him in France from 23.5.17 and transfer to R fus on 9.6.17. Can I assume basic training in UK prior to 23rd May?

See my following post re Surrey Recruitment Ledgers .

See also threads about the bullring at Etaples where further short intense training was given.

[Mick M]

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

See my following post re Surrey Recruitment Ledgers .

See also threads about the bullring at Etaples where further short intense training was given.

Thanks

[PRC]

13 hours ago, PRC said:

There may be some insight into how this transfer from the Queens came about by looking at the surviving service records for 65675 Harold Robert Shakeshaft, Royal Fusiliers.

@charlie962 and @Mick M

Is there anything of relevance in the records for Shakeshaft?

Cheers,
Peter

[Mick M]

Just now, PRC said:

@charlie962 and @Mick M

Is there anything of relevance in the records for Shakeshaft?

Cheers,
Peter

It's a bit vague he was tranfered to Labour corps.

[charlie962]

My responses a bit brief!Do come back for lengthier explanations if needed! 

Charlie

[Mick M]

1 minute ago, charlie962 said:

My responses a bit brief!Do come back for lengthier explanations if needed! 

Charlie

No the file...very happy with your responses.

[TEW]

I had a cursory look at the medical diaries for 37th division early Sept 1917.

I think they took over a new section of line 30/8/17 and were then relieved 6/9/17, the day after his death.

Reninghelst didn't come up other than on a 2nd Army DMS map only dated to 'Sept 1917'. I think it's later Sept but a collecting post is marked at Reninghelst.

The relevant FAs were based in Kemmel, Bailleul and Dranoutre/Outre.

It could be on the evacuation route to CCS at Remy Siding or Godewaersvelde.

Kemmel does'nt seem to have a relevant cemetery and I didn't check the other locations. He may have died during evac and made it as far as Kemmel or Outre and then taken to Reninghelst for burial or en route to CCS via Reninghelst.

Not seen which unit was based at the Reninghelst collecting post or exactly what was going on there. It could be any FA of IX Corps

Possibly the terminus for ambulances of the FAs to hand over to a MAC to take men on to CCS?

More than likely died of wounds the same day as wounded.

TEW

[charlie962]

Mick, that Surrey Recruitmen entry had confused me. 

By comparison I've looked at another builder, 39 year old Andrew Francis Hallett. 

RWS. 39739 France 23/5-5/6/17

13 RF  65682 6/6/17 on ( but eventually ends up, via NF Garrison Bn,  in RDefenceCorps)

 

This man has a surviving service record(a bit hard to read and on Findmypast in several bits) as well as an entry in Surrey Recruitment. Although the latter suggests he was conscripted, 3/12/16 this may be a transcription error. The service record includes a Derby Scheme Attestation dated  3/12/15, trfd to reserve next day and mobilised 19/2/17 and posted 3rdRWS on 5/3/17.

SVC records shows Hallett posted on arrival 38 IBD to 11th Queens but then to 13th RF 6/6/17, actually joining the Bn on 9/7/17. 

If you use Findmypast then just search for "Andrew Francis Hallett" without specifying unit or number. That way you get a number of records with strange dates etc but all seem to be same man. From study of his record you can draw parallels with recruitment and movement of Sutton, I suggest. But tread carefully.

Charlie 

Edit. Just to add that the RWS number for Sutton would thus have probably been issued at the time of his mobilisation in Feb 1917, rather like Hallett. But Sutton looks to have been originally called up June 1916 rather than being a 1915 Derby scheme man (I'm open to correction). He would have been trfd to reserve upon callup, awaiting the mobilization I mentioned.

Secondly I would agree that his UK training was very brief- 3 months- hence the intensive bit at 38 IBD in France.

Edited 18 July , 2022 by charlie962

[PRC]

8 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

RWS. 39739 ...... posted 3rdRWS on 5/3/17.

Which neatly ties in with G/39769 Private T.J. Beech who died on the home front serving with the 3rd Battalion on the 11th March 1917.

Richard Sutton was 39743 so very good chance that he too was initially posted to the 3rd Battalion.

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

1 minute ago, PRC said:

Which neatly ties in with G/39769 Private T.J. Beech who died on the home front serving with the 3rd Battalion on the 11th March 1917.

Richard Sutton was 39743 so very good chance that he too was initially posted to the 3rd Battalion.

Cheers,
Peter

Peter, you understand the recruitment process better than I do I'd be grateful for thoughts on call-up and mobilisation. When would Sutton have been first called up? Given the date in Surrey Recruitment I am saying he was not a Derby man?

I have no doubt Sutton, upon mobilisation, was posted to 3RWS a couple of days later. 

Charlie

[Mick M]

29 minutes ago, TEW said:

I had a cursory look at the medical diaries for 37th division early Sept 1917.

I think they took over a new section of line 30/8/17 and were then relieved 6/9/17, the day after his death.

Reninghelst didn't come up other than on a 2nd Army DMS map only dated to 'Sept 1917'. I think it's later Sept but a collecting post is marked at Reninghelst.

The relevant FAs were based in Kemmel, Bailleul and Dranoutre/Outre.

It could be on the evacuation route to CCS at Remy Siding or Godewaersvelde.

Kemmel does'nt seem to have a relevant cemetery and I didn't check the other locations. He may have died during evac and made it as far as Kemmel or Outre and then taken to Reninghelst for burial or en route to CCS via Reninghelst.

Not seen which unit was based at the Reninghelst collecting post or exactly what was going on there. It could be any FA of IX Corps

Possibly the terminus for ambulances of the FAs to hand over to a MAC to take men on to CCS?

More than likely died of wounds the same day as wounded.

TEW

Thank you for that, it is always dodgy making assumptions, as you say probably died an route.

[Mick M]

30 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Mick, that Surrey Recruitmen entry had confused me. 

By comparison I've looked at another builder, 39 year old Andrew Francis Hallett. 

RWS. 39739 France 23/5-5/6/17

13 RF  65682 6/6/17 on ( but eventually ends up, via NF Garrison Bn,  in RDefenceCorps)

 

This man has a surviving service record(a bit hard to read and on Findmypast in several bits) as well as an entry in Surrey Recruitment. Although the latter suggests he was conscripted, 3/12/16 this may be a transcription error. The service record includes a Derby Scheme Attestation dated  3/12/15, trfd to reserve next day and mobilised 19/2/17 and posted 3rdRWS on 5/3/17.

SVC records shows Hallett posted on arrival 38 IBD to 11th Queens but then to 13th RF 6/6/17, actually joining the Bn on 9/7/17. 

If you use Findmypast then just search for "Andrew Francis Hallett" without specifying unit or number. That way you get a number of records with strange dates etc but all seem to be same man. From study of his record you can draw parallels with recruitment and movement of Sutton, I suggest. But tread carefully.

Charlie 

Edit. Just to add that the RWS number for Sutton would thus have probably been issued at the time of his mobilisation in Feb 1917, rather like Hallett. But Sutton looks to have been originally called up June 1916 rather than being a 1915 Derby scheme man (I'm open to correction). He would have been trfd to reserve upon callup, awaiting the mobilization I mentioned.

Secondly I would agree that his UK training was very brief- 3 months- hence the intensive bit at 38 IBD in France.

Thank you that makes sense. If he had started training in June 1916 that would have meant 11 months training before embarkation...a short deferment would make sense.

[PRC]

While there could have been a mixed group of mobilised Derby Scheme and deferred conscripts who were called up at the same time, (the potential pool of Derby Scheme men must have been rapidly decreasing by this stage), I'm still inclined to go with a Derby Scheme man and assume a transcription error in the Surrey Recruitment lists.

So timeline something like this:-

December 1915 - enlists under the Derby Scheme, serves 24 hours and this is sent home and posted to the Army Reserve.
c19th February 1917 - sent notice of mobilisation with a period to sort his affairs out.
March 3rd - 11th 1917 - reports to his local depot and is posted to the 3rd Battalion, Queens Own (Royal West Surrey Regiment)
March 1917 - 22nd May 1917 - basic training for 8-9 weeks in the UK with the 3rd Battalion.
23rd May 1917 - lands in France as part of a draft intended for a Battalion of Queens Own (Royal West Surrey Regiment), reaching 38 Infantry Base Depot that day or the next. Initially posted to the 11th Battalion. LLT has 38 IBD at Etaples - i.e. the Bull Ring, scene of a mutiny in September 1917 as a result of the conditions and brutal treatment handed out to men passing through.
May 1917 to 6th June 1917. Undergoing additional in-theatre training to familiarise men with the latest practice in the front line.
6th June 1917 Some or all of the original draft is re-posted to the 13th Battalion, Royal Fusiliers.
9th June 1917. That group joins up with the 13th Battalion in the field.

Does that seem a likely fit?
Cheers,
Peter

[Mick M]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

@charlie962 and @Mick M

Is there anything of relevance in the records for Shakeshaft?

Cheers,
Peter

As best as I can make out G65675 was allocated on 6th June 1917 and Shakeshaft sent to join 10th Btn R Fus the following day. Sutton number 10 digits on was allocated 0n 8th June when he was transferred to 13th Btn R Fus. The medal roll shows a draft of 39 being sent to 13th on that day...

[PRC]

7 minutes ago, Mick M said:

As best as I can make out G65675 was allocated on 6th June 1917 and Shakeshaft sent to join 10th Btn R Fus the following day. Sutton number 10 digits on was allocated 0n 8th June when he was transferred to 13th Btn R Fus. The medal roll shows a draft of 39 being sent to 13th on that day...

So looks like a larger draft from the UK was broken up, mixed in with other men kicking around the depot, and posted in penny packets to wherever the need was greatest. Looking at the men who died on CWGC and SDGW and who have comparatively near Royal Fusiliers numbers to Richard Sutton shows:-

65667 Felix Joseph Cunningham, 10th Battalion, formerly 270401 A.S.C. (M.T.).
65674 Horace Race, 9th Battalion, formerly 24297 10th Suffolk Regiment.
65678 Emery Austin Topping, 10th Battalion, formerly 12867 Royal West Surrey Regiment.
G/65681 Maurice Missen, 10th Battalion, (CWGC as M Misson), formerly 15240 Royal West Kent Regiment.
(65686 Harry Wright, 13th Battalion –CWGC only. Addenda panel to the Tyne Cot Memorial so may originally have been a missed commemoration. MiC shows he had previously served in a Theatre of War as 39744 The Queens Regiment – i.e the Royal West Surrey Regiment.).
65688 Wallace Dowdy, 13th Battalion, formerly 27297 Northamptonshire Regiment
65694 Ernest Henry Green, 13th Battalion, formerly TR/13510 Training Reserve Battalion.

These “formerly” units are usually the first one served with, which is not necessarily the one they were in prior to their transfer to the Royal Fusiliers.

Cheers,
Peter