Chaplains.

[le ulhan]

Hello.

What was the role of the English chaplains apart from giving the extreme confession to the dying, with us he also acted as a nurse at the front, it is the same in the British units.

[aconnolly]

Hi le Ulhan

Not as a nurse, but undoubtedly many did assist the wounded.  Not only administering to the dying - many regular services held for the Officers and Men, performing burials, spiritual support for men at any time, comfort if they lost mates etc.  Confession is only for the Roman Catholics and majority of chaplains were not RC.

[le ulhan]

   Hi aconnolly   

Yes, but whether it be Catholic, Protestant, Jewish.. so they had other functions at least with us, I ask this question for the simple reason that I have never seen a chaplain's grave, yet they went to the front like troops!! they were also exposed on the battlefield??

[Matlock1418]

Chaplains were indeed exposed to many of the battlefield [wounds] and theatre of war [disease] risks that lead to death.

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission [CWGC] have 177 commemorations from the Army Chaplains' Department, see: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/search-results/?Surname=&Forename=&Initials=&ServiceNum=&Regiment=Army+Chaplains'+Department&WarSelect=1&CountryCommemoratedIn=null&Cemetery=&Unit=&Rank=&SecondaryRegiment=&AgeOfDeath=0&DateDeathFromDay=1&DateDeathFromMonth=January&DateDeathFromYear=&DateDeathToDay=1&DateDeathToMonth=January&DateDeathToYear=&DateOfDeath=&Honours=null&AdditionalInfo=&Size=100&Page=1&Sort=dateofdeath

Burials in many countries and theatres of war.

Here is the example of Rev. William Duncan GEARE, Chaplain 4th Class - Died 31 July 1917, Buried Vlamertinghe New Military Cemetery - Photos of the Chaplain and his CWGC headstone courtesy of Find a Grave. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/11408119/william-duncan-geare

M

[EastSurrey]

A number of chaplains were decorated for gallantry, e.g. Rev. G.D. P. Poole, serving in 72nd Brigade, 24th Division. His citation for his Military Cross, won during the March 1918 German offensive, reads 'for conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty during seven days of intense fighting, when by his cheerfulness and fine example of courage under heavy shell and machine gun fire he did much to cheer and keep up the morale of the men. He also performed splendid work in organising stretcher bearers and on two occasions assisted in the removal of the wounded under the most intense fire. Ii was mainly through his initiative that many badly wounded men escaped from falling into the hands of the enemy.'

Michael

[charlie962]

This site gives a good overview 

"HELLFIRE CORNER - Army Chaplain VCs" http://www.hellfirecorner.co.uk/coulson.htm

[charlie962]

There is an old thread here with a good bibliography on chaplains. Many are available online.

"Books on Army Chaplains (Padres) - Page 2 - Books and Book Reviews - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum" https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/86962-books-on-army-chaplains-padres/page/2/#comment-2807860

[Matlock1418]

A further GWF thread with additional suggestions of books that may be of interest https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/295671-information-on-chaplains

M

[knittinganddeath]

Earlier this year, Emily Mayhew gave a talk on the subject which I enjoyed very much.

 

[ilkley remembers]

7 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Here is the example of Rev. William Duncan GEARE, Chaplain 4th Class - Died 31 July 1917, Buried Vlamertinghe New Military Cemetery - Photos of the Chaplain and his CWGC headstone courtesy of Find a Grave. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/11408119/william-duncan-geare

M

 

Here is another picture of him

http://ilkleyremembers.blogspot.com/2019/02/chaplain-4th-class-william-duncan-geare.html

[le ulhan]

Thank you for your information on this subject and for the very interesting video.

[battle of loos]

good evening,

here is one cap badge :

regards

michel

[seaJane]

Royal Naval chaplains were usually assigned to first aid parties on board ship. The Rev. H.D. Dixon-Wright was chaplain to HMS BARHAM during the Battle of Jutland and is buried at the RN Cemetery, Lyness in Orkney; I have seen his gravestone.

This is the citation for VINDICTIVE's first-aid party chaplain after his actions during the Zeebrugge raid:

"Chaplain Rev. Charles John Eyre Peshall, B.A., R.N. ("Vindictive"). His cheerful encouragement and assistance to the wounded, calm demeanour during the din of battle, strength of character, and splendid comradeship were most conspicuous to all with whom he came in contact. Showed great physical strength, and did almost superhuman work in carrying wounded from the mole, over the brows into "Vindictive.""

[le ulhan]

Film Merry Christmas, the chaplain plays the bagpipes, he does not wear any distinction of his function, 7 times I have watched this film.

 

 

 

Edited 14 July , 2022 by le ulhan

[ilkley remembers]

One significant difference between French military chaplains and there British counterparts was that the former were liable to conscription whilst the latter were essentially volunteers. I also think that it is the case that French clergy could and did serve in the ranks whereas British padres were allocated officer status.

 

On the Western Front, it has been suggested that British chaplains from the various denominations represented, had differing attitudes about their ministry. I think that it has been argued that Roman Catholic chaplains had a greater affinity with largely working class other ranks resulting from their pre-war work in poorer communities. Also in comparison the the C of E and the Non-Conformists the sacramental nature of Catholicism meant that priests were more likely to enter the front lines to administer confession, the Eucharist and indeed extreme unction.

[seaJane]

1 hour ago, ilkley remembers said:

British padres were allocated officer status.

Although allocated officer status for purposes of being able to use the Wardroom, and so forth, chaplains in the Royal Navy were/are always considered to be no higher in rank or rate than the person they were/are currently talking with.

[ilkley remembers]

12 hours ago, seaJane said:

Although allocated officer status for purposes of being able to use the Wardroom, and so forth, chaplains in the Royal Navy were/are always considered to be no higher in rank or rate than the person they were/are currently talking with.

An interesting observation, presumably this came about because of the unique and confined nature of life at sea. I seem to remember reading somewhere that RN chaplains didn’t necessarily wear a uniform and that appropriate civilian clothing was worn. I would imagine that C of E clergymen in particular would have greater barriers to overcome in dealing with lower ranks given their elevated social status in Edwardian society.

 

I think that it has been suggested that there was reluctance within the RN to use chaplains from denominations other than C of E. Catholics priests in particular appear to have had difficulty in being accepted; perhaps Anti-Popery was still strong in the Senior Service.

[charlie962]

15 hours ago, seaJane said:

Although allocated officer status for purposes of being able to use the Wardroom, and so forth, chaplains in the Royal Navy were/are always considered to be no higher in rank or rate than the person they were/are currently talking with.

What a marvelous idea. Extremely difficult to put into practice.

[keithmroberts]

Next week I will be reading the diaries of Rev. Alfred Llewellyn Jones MC, one of the many chaplains connected with the Portsea Parish. The existence of his diaries was something I only discovered from his college website a few weeks ago. He was almost an exact contemporary at Portsea, and at war, of P B (Tubby) Clayton, and I hope that his notes on life in that parish with its 15 curates before the war, will prove to be as interesting as his actual war service.

[clk]

Image sourced from the National Archives

Regards
Chris

[keithmroberts]

Cheers Chris, here's a phot of him (courtesy of Talbot House, and a tribute quoted in Faith Under Fire, By Edward Madigan. Poat war he served as a parish priest. The Hubbard mentioned is Rev H E Hubbard DSO who participated in a parish Mission at Portsea in 1913.

The extract follows:

Major General Fielding, the CO of the Guards Division, wrote to the senior divisional Church of England chaplain to express his admiration and gratitude for the conduct of Anglican padres during one particular clash with the enemy: I am very glad to have your report of the work of the chaplains during the fighting that took place on September 15-16. From all sources I hear the same story that the chaplains were doing everything that was possible in comforting the dying and in helping the wounded. They themselves were exposing themselves continually to the hottest shell fire, helping to find and collect the wounded. And what I think was perhaps grander they were doing it not to get for themselves merit or honour, but because it was their duty. I am told on all sides that Rogers, Hubbard, Llewellyn Jones, and Crawley were especially splendid….. I cannot thank the chaplains too much for all that they did.

 

[seaJane]

23 hours ago, ilkley remembers said:

I think that it has been suggested that there was reluctance within the RN to use chaplains from denominations other than C of E

The numbers in the Navy List are certainly weighted towards C of E, and on occasion I have definitely pinpointed a RC naval chaplain only to find him not on the list (may have been simply a matter of missing the print deadline).

[ilkley remembers]

1 hour ago, seaJane said:

The numbers in the Navy List are certainly weighted towards C of E, and on occasion I have definitely pinpointed a RC naval chaplain only to find him not on the list (may have been simply a matter of missing the print deadline).

Thanks @seaJane for that information about the numbers of RC chaplains but I wonder to what extent they also reflect the legislation regarding worship on HMs ships. 

The 1661 Naval Discipline Act had prescribed that only the Established Church could conduct services aboard RN Ships:

...........All Officers in command of His Majesty's ships of war shall cause the public worship of Almighty God according to the liturgy of the Church of England established by law to be solemnly, orderly, and reverently performed in their respective ships, and shall take care that prayers and preaching, by the chaplains in Holy Orders of the respective ships, be performed diligently, and that the Lord's Day be observed according to law.

Think that this was also known as the 1st Article of War and wasn’t removed when the 1661 Act was updated in 1866. This appears to have been the official Admiralty line up to the eve of WW1 despite considerable agitation from the Catholic hierarchy demanding that sailors be given access to the sacraments whilst on HMs vessels. The Sea Lords had been somewhat reticent about the issue and appear to have largely ignored both the improving position of Catholicism within British society and the reality that a substantial proportion of of the navy was Catholic. It has been suggested that Anti-Popery was ingrained in the upper reaches of The Establishment in Victorian and Edwardian Britain and the RN largely reflected this prejudice.

 

Not sure that the army was much less entrenched in its outdated views; whem an increase in the numbers of Catholic chaplains was proposed in 1914 Kitchener  is alleged to have said  “they would only bring their priests with them and start wholesale proselytising”

[healdav]

On 15/07/2022 at 11:28, ilkley remembers said:

An interesting observation, presumably this came about because of the unique and confined nature of life at sea. I seem to remember reading somewhere that RN chaplains didn’t necessarily wear a uniform and that appropriate civilian clothing was worn. I would imagine that C of E clergymen in particular would have greater barriers to overcome in dealing with lower ranks given their elevated social status in Edwardian society.

 

I think that it has been suggested that there was reluctance within the RN to use chaplains from denominations other than C of E. Catholics priests in particular appear to have had difficulty in being accepted; perhaps Anti-Popery was still strong in the Senior Service.

The RN from sometime way back (don't know exactly when), recognised three denominations:

Anglican, RC, Protestant.

Given the limited accommodation on even the biggest ships there would normally only be one chaplain, and it could be that he belonged to any of the three. By the 1960s, and I have no idea how much earlier, there was a special dispensation for any chaplain to take any service in any of the denominational ways if the ship's crew demanded it. They minister to any sailor on board and have direct access to the Captain if necessary.

Traditionally, and this goes back to the time when chaplains were first carried, the chaplain's cabin lies forward of the wardroom. This served two purposes. Firstly, it mean that no sailor had to go into officer territory to get to his cabin and speak to him, and officers didn't have to go far for the same. In addition, it was the chaplain who stood in the way of mutineers, as they tried to storm officer territory and it was up to him to calm them down!

RN chaplains wear an officer's uniform showing no rank. They are, however, classed a officers for messing purposes (it makes it easier for admin and practical reasons - which rank mess would they use otherwise?) However, in the old days, they were NOT classed as officers for toilet purposes and had to use the seamen's heads in the forepeak! There was song written as a lament by a chaplain about this.

There was a difference between RN chaplains and army. RN chaplains are career, but army are employed on contract for X years. It is very rare for the contract not to be renewed, but I do know of one man who was told to pack his bags at the end of the contract. I don't know the precise reason, but it was something to do with some regimental funds disappearing.

 

[ilkley remembers]

5 hours ago, healdav said:

Given the limited accommodation on even the biggest ships there would normally only be one chaplain, and it could be that he belonged to any of the three

In the four decades prior to the beginning of WW1 the Catholic hierarchy in England and Ireland had repeatedly asked for permission to allow chaplains to accompany the fleet in order to administer to the needs of Catholic sailors. The Admiralty repeatedly rebuffed this request using the excuse of lack of space aboard fighting ships. In fact the request by the church was for an RC chaplain to accompany each squadron using a berth on less crowded auxiliary or hospital ship. It seems clear that in refusing this request  the C of E wished to maintain its hegemony within the RN and the Admiralty was complicit in maintaining this arrangement.

 

In 1914 this imperative was challenged by the circumstances of conflict and access to the sacraments by RC sailors prior to navel engagements was deemed essential by the Catholic Church. To challenge the Admiralty’s tardiness in engaging with the issue the Catholic hierarchy in Ireland along with priests in ports with significant catholic minorities like Liverpool began a campaign of discoraging catholic men from enlisting in the RN. The Government immediately perceived the danger that such a movement might have on to general recruiting and effectively caved in to the demand of the RC Church. Winston Churchill in an effort to save face stipulated that the arrangement allowing priest to minister to catholic sailors whilst at sea would only last for the period of the war. However, in reality the change in protocols was never rescinded.

Edited 16 July , 2022 by ilkley remembers