Information on Chaplains

[LChapman]

I have an ancestor who was an army chaplain, Peter George Smith. Before the war he was minister of Kippen parish, near Stirling. I actually don't even know which regiment(s) he was with, but I know that he was still serving in Cologne after the Armistice, from where he was sent home due to bad health. He died at the end of 1919. I see that the National Archives has a file for him but it will take a while to find out if I can get a copy of this. Meantime, does anybody know of other resources for finding out about chaplains? I'd also appreciate any general histories of the experiences of chaplains, if anyone had a recommendation? Thanks.

[petwes]

I have just finished reading "Wounded: The long journey home from the great war" by Emily Mayhew. It is a light, but interesting read and includes a chapter on Chaplains. It is reasonably priced as a paperback. There are a list of references included. 

Peter

[LChapman]

Thank you, I'll look for that.

[Michelle Young]

The Bickersteth Diaries deal with, amongst others, the Rev Julian Bickersteth. Also The Fighting Padre, the letters of Rev Pat Leonard. For a Catholic perspective, Worshipper and Worshipped about Father Willy Doyle by Carole Hope. 

[alf mcm]

Your best source is probably local nerwspapers. This article is from the from the Motherwell Times of 5th December 1919.

I wonder what he did at the steelworks, I know of a minister who made munitions one day a week.

Image courtesey of Findmypast.

Regards,

Alf McM

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, LChapman said:

Meantime, does anybody know of other resources for finding out about chaplains? I'd also appreciate any general histories of the experiences of chaplains, if anyone had a recommendation?

Here is your start although I believe the museum is currently closed

https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/royal-army-chaplains-department

You should also consider the Bickersteth Diaries, a classic of the war, used copies are readily available and not expensive e.g.

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/Bickersteth-Diaries-Ella-Pen-Sword-Books/30821458986/bd?cm_mmc=ggl-_-UK_Shopp_Tradestandard-_-product_id=UK9780850524888USED-_-keyword=&gclid=CjwKCAiA0KmPBhBqEiwAJqKK42EgV_vqGzOvTdv01rt5Q6UD1B_M0634naw79tRcPyqb0_GOMNq3PhoC8XsQAvD_BwE

(Usual disclaimer no connection with sellers etc)

Also bear in mind you can pay a researcher at TNA (not the TNA) to copy the record for you. You can ask for recommendations here.  A forum search on Chaplains will bring up a number of threads.

 

 

[Michelle Young]

Just thought of another one, The Best Of Good Fellows, about Rev Charles Doudney. One I haven’t read is a book called God On Our Side by  Michael Moynihan. 

[LChapman]

Fantastic, lots to look at, thanks everyone.

[petwes]

I guess this is him?

https://www.fold3.com/image/689494985?terms=peter,kingdom,chaplain,george,war,smith,world,i,united

Peter

[LChapman]

34 minutes ago, petwes said:

I guess this is him?

https://www.fold3.com/image/689494985?terms=peter,kingdom,chaplain,george,war,smith,world,i,united

Peter

Yes, I did find that through Ancestry. But I don't have a subscription and already used up my free trial.

[Matlock1418]

On 21/01/2022 at 15:47, LChapman said:

I'd also appreciate any general histories of the experiences of chaplains

Possibly: Padre, Prisoner and Pen-pusher: The World War One experiences of the Reverend Benjamin O'Rorke, Peter Howson, 2015

M

Edited 22 January , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[Matlock1418]

As above = Pension card at WFA/Fold3

Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3

M

[petwes]

1 hour ago, LChapman said:

Yes, I did find that through Ancestry. But I don't have a subscription and already used up my free trial.

Join the WFA and you will have free access. Plus many other benefits for anyone interested in WW1!

Peter

[Matlock1418]

14 minutes ago, petwes said:

Join the WFA and you will have free access. Plus many other benefits for anyone interested in WW1!

Agreed - Usually only £29 pa!  https://www.westernfrontassociation.com 

M

Edited 21 January , 2022 by Matlock1418
link

[Bordercollie]

The Flag: The Story of Revd David Railton MC and the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior might also be worth a look.  The first eight chapters are about David Railton's experience as a chaplain on the Western Front which led him to play his part in bringing the Unknown Warrior back to Westminster Abbey, and that is covered in the subsequent five chapters. 

[LChapman]

On 21/01/2022 at 20:31, petwes said:

Join the WFA and you will have free access. Plus many other benefits for anyone interested in WW1!

Peter

Interesting, I might do that!

[LChapman]

On 21/01/2022 at 19:14, Matlock1418 said:

As above = Pension card at WFA/Fold3

Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3

M

Thank you very much for putting that up. It was this stomach cancer that he died from at the end of 1919. One aspect of my research into him is that I believe he should be commemorated by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. If he was receiving disability pension for this illness that suggests it was judged to have been at least partially aggravated by war service, in which case he does indeed fall under CWGC criteria. 

[Matlock1418]

25 minutes ago, LChapman said:

Thank you very much for putting that up. It was this stomach cancer that he died from at the end of 1919. One aspect of my research into him is that I believe he should be commemorated by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. If he was receiving disability pension for this illness that suggests it was judged to have been at least partially aggravated by war service, in which case he does indeed fall under CWGC criteria. 

The trick is proving commemoration is due - see:  https://www.cwgc.org/media/0awj5vti/policy-eligibility-criteria-for-commemoration_march21.pdf 

and from the CWGC FAQ:

"CWGC are responsible for the commemoration of personnel who died between
4 August 1914 and 31 August 1921 and
whilst serving in a Commonwealth military force or specified auxiliary organisation.

Personnel who died between 
4 August 1914 and 31 August 1921 and
after they were discharged from a Commonwealth military force, if their death was caused by their wartime service."

Was he serving or was he discharged?

= If in service = commemoration due.

= If dying after discharge = it must be proved that it was from a condition caused/aggravated by his war service.

CWGC do like very clear demonstration using clear documentary evidence for the latter - not always that easy.

I would note that the pension index card above only indicates a claim was made, but in itself does not provide confirmation that anything got paid out.

And anyway the CWGC do also seem very reluctant to accept MoP documents/payments as evidence of enligibility for commemoration unless it is clearly spelt out in b/w on a range of documents and not limited to an inference/interpretation of a MoP record(s).  This somewhat baffles/frustrates me at times - the MoP can on occasions be clearly seen/inferred/interpretted as accepting liability for a pension [and by their paying out of cash!] and yet the yet CWGC on occasions do not accept for commemoration.  You need to prepare your case well - as to me it seems even harder to challenge CWGC once/after an initial decision has been made. [I raise not as a discouragement, but only as a cautionary note based on experience].

Good luck with any further research etc.

M

[Matlock1418]

On 21/01/2022 at 15:47, LChapman said:

I see that the National Archives has a file for him but it will take a while to find out if I can get a copy of this.

Reverend Peter George SMITH, Army Chaplains' Department = Indeed it does: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C733811

M

[LChapman]

28 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

The trick is proving commemoration is due - see:  https://www.cwgc.org/media/0awj5vti/policy-eligibility-criteria-for-commemoration_march21.pdf 

and from the CWGC FAQ:

"CWGC are responsible for the commemoration of personnel who died between
4 August 1914 and 31 August 1921 and
whilst serving in a Commonwealth military force or specified auxiliary organisation.

Personnel who died between 
4 August 1914 and 31 August 1921 and
after they were discharged from a Commonwealth military force, if their death was caused by their wartime service."

Was he serving or was he discharged?

= If in service = commemoration due.

= If dying after discharge = it must be proved that it was from a condition caused/aggravated by his war service.

CWGC do like very clear demonstration using clear documentary evidence for the latter - not always that easy.

I would note that the pension index card above only indicates a claim was made, but in itself does not provide confirmation that anything got paid out.

And anyway the CWGC do also seem very reluctant to accept MoP documents/payments as evidence of enligibility for commemoration unless it is clearly spelt out in b/w on a range of documents and not limited to an inference/interpretation of a MoP record(s).  This somewhat baffles/frustrates me at times - the MoP can on occasions be clearly seen/inferred/interpretted as accepting liability for a pension [and by their paying out of cash!] and yet the yet CWGC on occasions do not accept for commemoration.  You need to prepare your case well - as to me it seems even harder to challenge CWGC once/after an initial decision has been made. [I raise not as a discouragement, but only as a cautionary note based on experience].

Good luck with any further research etc.

M

Thank you very much for the advice. I appreciate your point about the pension card, hopefully the National Archives file will show whether he actually received a pension and perhaps provide the further evidence you recommend I would need. My impression is that he was discharged by the time of his death at the end of 1919, but had been sent home from active service earlier that year because of his health. I have found another case which seems to be very similar (died postwar from stomach cancer) though it was from the Second World War.

[Bernard_Lewis]

https://www.downsideabbey.co.uk/shop/books/monks-in-the-military/

Bernard

[TullochArd]

"I have an ancestor who was an army chaplain, Peter George Smith. Before the war he was minister of Kippen parish, near Stirling. I actually don't even know which regiment(s) he was with, ....."

Peter George Smith ........ Life story: Peter George Smith | Lives of the First World War (iwm.org.uk) ....... Chaplain to the 9th (Service) Battalion, Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

Edited 27 January , 2022 by TullochArd