Looking for Fred White

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Arthur S said:

Just received two new pictures from my MIL 

Both photos show him in R.A.F. uniform.  In the lowermost photo, with a lady, she is wearing his forage cap with an early cloth badge** for ranks below warrant officer.  That together with his medal ribbons suggests a date in 1919.  In the uppermost photo the lorry has numerous decorations that to me suggest a celebration, probably of the Armistice given the various national flags.

**There were four variants of this badge, which followed a traditional style of the Royal Navy:

1.  In gilt bullion wire for warrant officers 2nd class.

2. In yellow thread for sergeants and flight sergeants.

3. In scarlet thread for rank and file (corporals, airmen, and mechanics).

4. In off white thread for Women's Royal Air Force.

 

Edited 10 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Arthur S said:

Interesting to note that along with his cap with its seemingly large badge [Edit: possibly in gilt wire as has just been posted??], being worn by the young lady, he is wearing full-length leather gaiters that @FROGSMILE suggested earlier were indicative of a WO. [I have incredibly little knowledge on badges and uniforms so am just making an observation]

The medal ribbons to me would seem suggestive of a date in his later/tail-end career [since IIFC I think most/certainly a high percentage were sent out c.1920-21]

M

Edited 10 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
gilt wire?

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Interesting to note that along with his cap with its seemingly large badge, being worn by the young lady, he is wearing full-length leather gaiters that @FROGSMILE suggested earlier were indicative of a WO. [I have incredibly little knowledge on badges and uniforms so am just making an observation]

The medal ribbons to me would seem suggestive of a date in his later/tail-end career [since IIFC I think most/certainly a high percentage were sent out c.1920-21]

M

The leather gaiters were an indicator of a senior status rather than a specific rank.  My point was that, together with the cap badge, it corroborated the WOI identification.  It’s interesting I agree that he’s wearing them in this second photo.  The bright shade of the padded woven badge on his cap, worn by the lady suggests either, yellow thread, which would indicate a SNCO, or gilt bullion wire, which identified the rank of WOII.  I am utterly baffled though as to why there is no arm rank apparent and cannot explain it away.  As mentioned earlier, it’s all rather odd.

The enclosed images show the cap of a RAF warrant officer class II circa 1918.

 

 

Edited 10 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The leather gaiters were an indicator of a senior status rather than a specific rank.  My point was that, together with the cap badge, it corroborated the WOI identification. 

I see, in the earlier photo = WO1. That seems clear enough then and now.

But I'm still rather puzzled by this more recently posted photo in which I could see no other badges of rank [though possibly a wound stripe??] - and that his Airman's record does not show a particularly high rank at the tail-end of his service. ???

M

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

I see, in the earlier photo = WO1. That seems clear enough then and now.

But I'm still rather puzzled by this more recently posted photo in which I could see no other badges of rank [though possibly a wound stripe??] - and that his Airman's record does not show a particularly high rank at the tail-end of his service. ???

M

I refer the honourable gentleman to the final two sentences of my last post.

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

I refer the honourable gentleman to the final two sentences of my last post.

You flatter me with the status so provided! - I suggest we have been cross editing/posting.

We are on the same page in our puzzlement. 

M

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

You flatter me with the status so provided! - I suggest we have been cross editing/posting.

We are on the same page in our puzzlement. 

M

All I can say is that these were very early stages in the development of an individual R.A.F. identity and the period 1918-19 was one of continual administrative change, with a degree of bickering in the uppermost echelons between Royal Navy and Army influence and the part that such heritage related traditions should play.  Add to that supply chain challenges for the newly ordained insignia, and pressures to wear out old stocks of uniform, and it wouldn’t have been the most coherent of periods.

Edited 10 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

All I can say is that these were very early stages in the development of an individual R.A.F. identity and the period 1918-19 was one of continual change, with a degree of bickering in the uppermost echelons between Royal Navy and Army influence.  Add to that supply chain challenges for new insignia and pressures to wear out old stocks of uniform and it wouldn’t have been the most coherent of periods.

That's very true. 

The matter of the changing of uniform and the using up and wearing out of old uniform stock was certainly a subject discussed in Parliament in 1918 and is now recorded in Hansard.  https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1918/jul/11/royal-air-force-uniform 

M

Edited 10 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
Hansard link

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

That's very true. 

The matter of the changing of uniform and the using up and wearing out of old uniform stock was certainly a subject discussed in Parliament in 1918 and is now recorded in Hansard.

M

The RNAS did not have a tradition of rank stripes for all NCO levels, in the way that the RFC did, so perhaps that is reflected in the particular squadron associated with the photographs, albeit that I’m clutching at straws now.  Nevertheless, there has to be an explanation even if we’re not party to it.  It’s interesting that the different cap badges denoted status at a glance.

Edited 10 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

20 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

That's very true. 

The matter of the changing of uniform and the using up and wearing out of old uniform stock was certainly a subject discussed in Parliament in 1918 and is now recorded in Hansard.  https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1918/jul/11/royal-air-force-uniform 

M

Interestingly the first badge laid down for the R.A.F. WOI in April 1918 was a small, gilt crown and eagle, to be worn on khaki uniform midway up the upper arm**.  This would not have shown well in black and white photos unless close up and might be why we are struggling to see anything.  It was only on the short-lived light blue uniform, a dress not seen on operational duties, that a coat of arms on the lower sleeve was stipulated.  It wasn’t until 1919 that the darker, RAF blue began to be rolled out, and again, not in the operational theatres where large stocks of RAF pattern khaki service dress continued to be wasted out.  Thus it was not until 1924 that the coat of arms badge became universal for R.A.F. WOI, in conjunction with the new, universal blue (and now iconic) uniform for temperate climates (R.A.F. pattern khaki drill was worn in tropical stations).

Conclusion:  It seems to me quite possible that the warrant officer 1st class gilt arm badge worn specifically on khaki is out of sight, or simply just not yet arrived for issue, in which case the cap insignia was sufficient.

**a similar badge was used on the junior officers cuffs and much later was utilised as simple insignia for the RAF blue field service cap.

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

On 09/05/2022 at 17:41, FROGSMILE said:

I’m glad to help a little, and it’s not over yet.  Perhaps @kenf48might be able to add some granularity to the KOYLI regimental service number, although nothing can be promised.  The destruction of so many of the Army service records in WW2 is invariably a hurdle.

Apologies for the delay been away for a long  weekend and only had my phone. Apologies for any repetition but my method is to put things in a timeline.

Surviving service records accord with the RAF Record previously posted above that show he joined the Army on the 9th January 1915, in all probability at the local Drill Hall, enlisting on TF terms into the 4th (Reserve) or 2/4 Battalion of the KOYLI.  The HQ of the 4th Bn. was at Wakefield,  two Companies were originally stationed there and the other locations were  Normanton, Ossett, Dewsbury, Batley and Morley. As his birth location is Horbury, in all probability he joined at Wakefield.  Some local newspapers were still publishing names of recruits at this time.

The 2/4 Battalion remained on Home Service until 15 January 1917. 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-own-yorkshire-light-infantry/

As ACM White has no entitlement to the 14-15 Star he did not go with the main body of the 1/4th, although it is possible he was in a reinforcement draft.  My interpretation is that was unlikely.

He could legitimately join the TF at seventeen for home service and in January 1917 his Army Age would make him eligible at nineteen for active service overseas.  No doubt it was whilst on Home Service he qualified as a signaller.

The KOYLI as was common pre war raised just two TF Battalions, which after war was declared, formed a reserve or "second line' once the WO gave approval.

We can eliminate the 5th Battalion (2/5) KOYLI as Pte Barrass 2155 enlisted in May 1915, and also see below re TF renumbering.

There does seem to be some confusion in the transcriptions as to Fred White’s service numbers.The TF Infantry was renumbered in March 1917.  The six digit series  allocated tot he KOYLI were:-

200001 - 240000 4th

240001 - 265000 5th

TNA and FMP show White's RFC number as  P201666 but the RAF record posted above shows he was 405756.  As he was apparently still with the KOYLI, or at least not officially transferred to the RFC until 11 October 1917 (he may have been attached), he would have been renumbered with his comrades in the 4th KOYLI series.

201666/4154 fits in that series which is confirmed by the Medal Rolls:-

201664/4152 Waite

201668/4156 Rhodes.

The "P" is a bit of a mystery, unless it's a "T".

There is therefore a high degree of certainty he enlisted in the 2/4th KOYLI on the 9th January 1915, and was serving in either the 1/4th or 2/4th when renumbered in March 1917.  The medals are named to first unit in a theatre of war, the 4154 number and the other four digit numbers on the Rolls indicate he went overseas with that number as did his comrades mentioned above, and again my interpretation is that was with the 2/4th in January 1917.

[Arthur S]

50 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Apologies for the delay been away for a long  weekend and only had my phone. Apologies for any repetition but my method is to put things in a timeline.

Surviving service records accord with the RAF Record previously posted above that show he joined the Army on the 9th January 1915, in all probability at the local Drill Hall, enlisting on TF terms into the 4th (Reserve) or 2/4 Battalion of the KOYLI.  The HQ of the 4th Bn. was at Wakefield,  two Companies were originally stationed there and the other locations were  Normanton, Ossett, Dewsbury, Batley and Morley. As his birth location is Horbury, in all probability he joined at Wakefield.  Some local newspapers were still publishing names of recruits at this time.

The 2/4 Battalion remained on Home Service until 15 January 1917. 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-own-yorkshire-light-infantry/

As ACM White has no entitlement to the 14-15 Star he did not go with the main body of the 1/4th, although it is possible he was in a reinforcement draft.  My interpretation is that was unlikely.

He could legitimately join the TF at seventeen for home service and in January 1917 his Army Age would make him eligible at nineteen for active service overseas.  No doubt it was whilst on Home Service he qualified as a signaller.

The KOYLI as was common pre war raised just two TF Battalions, which after war was declared, formed a reserve or "second line' once the WO gave approval.

We can eliminate the 5th Battalion (2/5) KOYLI as Pte Barrass 2155 enlisted in May 1915, and also see below re TF renumbering.

There does seem to be some confusion in the transcriptions as to Fred White’s service numbers.The TF Infantry was renumbered in March 1917.  The six digit series  allocated tot he KOYLI were:-

200001 - 240000 4th

240001 - 265000 5th

TNA and FMP show White's RFC number as  P201666 but the RAF record posted above shows he was 405756.  As he was apparently still with the KOYLI, or at least not officially transferred to the RFC until 11 October 1917 (he may have been attached), he would have been renumbered with his comrades in the 4th KOYLI series.

201666/4154 fits in that series which is confirmed by the Medal Rolls:-

201664/4152 Waite

201668/4156 Rhodes.

The "P" is a bit of a mystery, unless it's a "T".

There is therefore a high degree of certainty he enlisted in the 2/4th KOYLI on the 9th January 1915, and was serving in either the 1/4th or 2/4th when renumbered in March 1917.  The medals are named to first unit in a theatre of war, the 4154 number and the other four digit numbers on the Rolls indicate he went overseas with that number as did his comrades mentioned above, and again my interpretation is that was with the 2/4th in January 1917.

Very interesting information so if he really was in the 2/4th he would have participated in those battles 

 

2/4th Battalion Territorial Force
30.09.1914 Formed at Wakefield.
Mar 1915 Moved to Bulwell near Nottingham as part of the 187th Brigade of the 62nd Division and then moved to Strensall and then to Beverley and then Gateshead.
Jan 1916 Moved to Larkhill, Salisbury Plain and then to Flixton Park, Bungay.
Oct 1916 Moved to Wellingborough.
15.01.1917 Mobilised for war and landed at Havre and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;
1917
The Operations on the Ancre, The German retreat to the Hindenburg Line, The first attack on Bullecourt, The German attack on Lagnicourt, The Battle of Bullecourt, The actions on the Hindenburg Line, The Cambrai Operations.
1918
The Battle of Bapaume, The First Battle of Arras, The Battle of the Tardenois, The Battle of the Scarpe, The Battle of the Drocourt-Queant Line, The Battle of Havrincourt, The Battle of the Canal du Nord, The Battle of the Selle, The capture of Solesmes, The Battle of the Sambre.
11.11.1918 Ended the war at Sous le Bois near Maubeuge, France.

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, Arthur S said:

Very interesting information so if he really was in the 2/4th he would have participated in those battles 

 

2/4th Battalion Territorial Force
30.09.1914 Formed at Wakefield.
Mar 1915 Moved to Bulwell near Nottingham as part of the 187th Brigade of the 62nd Division and then moved to Strensall and then to Beverley and then Gateshead.
Jan 1916 Moved to Larkhill, Salisbury Plain and then to Flixton Park, Bungay.
Oct 1916 Moved to Wellingborough.
15.01.1917 Mobilised for war and landed at Havre and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;
1917
The Operations on the Ancre, The German retreat to the Hindenburg Line, The first attack on Bullecourt, The German attack on Lagnicourt, The Battle of Bullecourt, The actions on the Hindenburg Line, The Cambrai Operations.
1918
The Battle of Bapaume, The First Battle of Arras, The Battle of the Tardenois, The Battle of the Scarpe, The Battle of the Drocourt-Queant Line, The Battle of Havrincourt, The Battle of the Canal du Nord, The Battle of the Selle, The capture of Solesmes, The Battle of the Sambre.
11.11.1918 Ended the war at Sous le Bois near Maubeuge, France.

Only until such time as he commenced his attachment to the Royal Flying Corps, which was probably as a signaller. 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Apologies for the delay been away for a long  weekend and only had my phone. Apologies for any repetition but my method is to put things in a timeline.

Surviving service records accord with the RAF Record previously posted above that show he joined the Army on the 9th January 1915, in all probability at the local Drill Hall, enlisting on TF terms into the 4th (Reserve) or 2/4 Battalion of the KOYLI.  The HQ of the 4th Bn. was at Wakefield,  two Companies were originally stationed there and the other locations were  Normanton, Ossett, Dewsbury, Batley and Morley. As his birth location is Horbury, in all probability he joined at Wakefield.  Some local newspapers were still publishing names of recruits at this time.

The 2/4 Battalion remained on Home Service until 15 January 1917. 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-own-yorkshire-light-infantry/

As ACM White has no entitlement to the 14-15 Star he did not go with the main body of the 1/4th, although it is possible he was in a reinforcement draft.  My interpretation is that was unlikely.

He could legitimately join the TF at seventeen for home service and in January 1917 his Army Age would make him eligible at nineteen for active service overseas.  No doubt it was whilst on Home Service he qualified as a signaller.

The KOYLI as was common pre war raised just two TF Battalions, which after war was declared, formed a reserve or "second line' once the WO gave approval.

We can eliminate the 5th Battalion (2/5) KOYLI as Pte Barrass 2155 enlisted in May 1915, and also see below re TF renumbering.

There does seem to be some confusion in the transcriptions as to Fred White’s service numbers.The TF Infantry was renumbered in March 1917.  The six digit series  allocated tot he KOYLI were:-

200001 - 240000 4th

240001 - 265000 5th

TNA and FMP show White's RFC number as  P201666 but the RAF record posted above shows he was 405756.  As he was apparently still with the KOYLI, or at least not officially transferred to the RFC until 11 October 1917 (he may have been attached), he would have been renumbered with his comrades in the 4th KOYLI series.

201666/4154 fits in that series which is confirmed by the Medal Rolls:-

201664/4152 Waite

201668/4156 Rhodes.

The "P" is a bit of a mystery, unless it's a "T".

There is therefore a high degree of certainty he enlisted in the 2/4th KOYLI on the 9th January 1915, and was serving in either the 1/4th or 2/4th when renumbered in March 1917.  The medals are named to first unit in a theatre of war, the 4154 number and the other four digit numbers on the Rolls indicate he went overseas with that number as did his comrades mentioned above, and again my interpretation is that was with the 2/4th in January 1917.

Brilliant stuff in your usual style Ken.  Thank you for taking the time and trouble to analyse his service.

His enlistment with the KOYLI is entirely logical and sits with the earlier photo of a KOYLI group, plus the portrait photo where he wears a signaller’s badge, a good conduct badge (GCB) - cuff stripe, and an early war emergency pattern simplified jacket with its tell tale chest pockets.  This latter image is intriguing, as GCB were not authorised for TF soldiers until 1916 IIRC, which suggests a photo on home service 2-years from his point of enlistment.  

What puzzles me beyond that is the first photo posted, which is clearly of him, showing a very youthful countenance and physique indeed.  It’s plain from the set of his shoulders that he’s still a boy and (I believe) below the age for military service other than as a boy entrant, unless he falsified his age.  Beyond that, though, he is wearing the Yorkshire Hussars Yeomanry cap badge, is holding a riding whip, rather than swagger stick, and has his puttees wrapped and fastened in the style used for mounted duty.  It’s quite possible that he transferred early on, and there were also cadet battalions sponsored by some infantry regiment’s TF battalions (shown in annual army lists), but in this case he’s clearly an auxiliary cavalryman (yeoman), albeit a youthful one, as e.g. trumpeters often were.  

Some TF drill halls were shared between several units so I suppose it’s possible that he transferred in-situ, but it’s most frustrating not being able to find some record of how this came about.  The photograph is, after all, irrefutable evidence.

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

has his puttees wrapped and fastened in the style used for mounted duty.

I hate to question on this point - but to my eye his puttees appear wound from bottom to top, with dark tapes at top, which is more of an infantry style.  Slightly conflicting with the whip and cap badge which do rather err toward mounted-duty. = ???

The middle of his service seems pretty sorted now.

I have to confess the later photo of a RAF WO1 puzzles me most as I can't really see how Fred WHITE can have climbed so many ranks in the period 1919 [AC1] to 1921 [???] and there is no such record on his Airman's Record [of course we have only been offered the front of his record, above, and I can't see the rear, and yet I don't really expect such on the back] = ???

As we have discussed the WO1 quite a bit previously I'm a bit surprised the OP hasn't had more to comment on this last issue.  Perhaps yet to come.

M

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I hate to question on this point - but to my eye his puttees appear wound from bottom to top, with dark tapes at top, which is more of an infantry style.  Slightly conflicting with the whip and cap badge which do rather err toward mounted-duty. = ???

The middle of his service seems pretty sorted now.

I have to confess the later photo of a RAF WO1 puzzles me most as I can't really see how Fred WHITE can have climbed so many ranks in the period 1919 [AC1] to 1921 [???] and there is no such record on his Airman's Record [of course we have only been offered the front of his record, above, and I can't see the rear, and yet I don't really expect such on the back] = ???

As we have discussed the WO1 quite a bit previously I'm a bit surprised the OP hasn't had more to comment on this last issue.  Perhaps yet to come.

M

I can’t see any ‘tapes’ at top and interpreted them as out-of-sight at the ankle end.  Dark cloth at top I see as the turnover of his trousers as far as I can tell.  All a bit academic anyway given his Yeomanry cap badge and riding whip.

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

can’t see any tapes at top and interpreted them as out of sight at ankle end.  Dark cloth at top I see as the turnover of his trousers as far as I can tell.  All a bit academic anyway given his Yeomanry cap badge and riding whip.

Yes, I'm much more interested in what the OP has to say about the WO1.

M

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Yes, I'm much more interested in what the OP has to say about the WO1.

M

Yes, I agree.  I’m less troubled now that I’ve seen the slightly earlier photo of him with the lady wearing his cap and bright coloured cap insignia, which can as a minimum only be that of a SNCO.  Also, most significantly, the very small upper arm badge worn by a WOI on khaki would be very easy to miss.  If he went during his last 2-years to a posting somewhere as a specialist signaller, it’s not completely impossible that he was appointed as an acting WOI.  It was a hectic period, with Iraq, Afghanistan, North Russia, Turkey, Ireland, and a mass demobilisation all going on at more or less the same time, plus the R.A.F. was just trying to get its new (literally) institutions on their feet.  All photos seem to be the same man, so it’s the final part of his R.A.F. Service Record that’s crucial to understanding what went on.

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

The War Diary for the 2/4th is fascinating as it details their home service prior to deployment to the BEF Ican't see him mentioned by name. It appears an initial attemptmt was made but abandoned as casualties mounted.

It is on Ancestry here if you subscribe

Or can currently be downloaded for free from TNA if you register

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355410

As noted above he was transferred to the RFC on the 11 October 1917 so did not participate in any engagements with the Battalion after that date.  As the transfer was at home he probably was posted from a Reserve Battalion.  We don't know when or why he returned to the UK I can't see him on a casualty list, but they don't record sickness.  It's possible his true age was revealed and he was returned to the UK, without a record impossible to say.

I can't help with the Yeomanry service, or his RFC/RAF postings.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, kenf48 said:

The War Diary for the 2/4th is fascinating as it details their home service prior to deployment to the BEF Ican't see him mentioned by name. It appears an initial attemptmt was made but abandoned as casualties mounted.

It is on Ancestry here if you subscribe

Or can currently be downloaded for free from TNA if you register

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355410

As noted above he was transferred to the RFC on the 11 October 1917 so did not participate in any engagements with the Battalion after that date.  As the transfer was at home he probably was posted from a Reserve Battalion.  We don't know when or why he returned to the UK I can't see him on a casualty list, but they don't record sickness.  It's possible his true age was revealed and he was returned to the UK, without a record impossible to say.

I can't help with the Yeomanry service, or his RFC/RAF postings.

 

 

Thank you Ken, your input deeply appreciated and immensely useful, as always. 

For: @Arthur S it’s plain to see that although Fred White enlisted with the KOYLI in 1915, he spent some time previously, almost certainly in 1914 given his very youthful appearance, with the Yorkshire Hussars Yeomanry.  I don’t think he’s simply dressed up in a borrowed uniform, as he has the appearance of someone who’s received some training and appears at ease with all aspects of his uniform.  Unfortunately with his Army Service Record almost certainly destroyed during WW2, any documentary evidence has gone.  However, there are sometimes ‘muster rolls’ (lists of men and boys attending training) of auxiliary units held in the archives of regional libraries and it might also be worth you inquiring with the local museum for the area where the yeomanry recruited.  It’s important to remember that the auxiliary forces were primarily home defence units, until the war forced a change in policy, and their administration was the responsibility of the Territorial County Associations, rather than the regular army.  It is for that reason that their history is (or was) recorded in civil municipal museums and libraries, rather than the museums of regular army regiments.  See:  https://ageofrevolution.org/venues/yorkshire-yeomanry-museum/

Edited 12 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE