Looking for Fred White

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, Arthur S said:

Hey I am trying to find information on my wife's great grandfather Fred ,, Jack '' White he was 16 when he enlisted 

Fred,, Jack '' white 

Born 15 August 1898 

In horbury, West Yorkshire, England 

I don't know in wich battalion he fought or were he was send to any information would help best regards 

 

The pictures I am adding are all from my wife's mother

He’s very young here (below military age for deployment) and either, a cadet unit, or a boy entrant in The Yorkshire Hussars (Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own), I can’t see the badge clearly enough on my phone screen.  However, he holds a whip of riding type rather than a swagger stick, which would bear out Yeomanry.

In the second photo he has qualified as a signaller, and has a regular army good conduct badge (inverted cuff stripe) for 2-years service and yet is still very young.  I think he began as a boy soldier entrant.  After 1916 war service in all parts of army counted towards good conduct badges, not just regulars.

 

 

Edited 8 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, Arthur S said:

Thanks for all the information 

Do you know this from the badges? 

Yes.  The cap badge is distinctive.  See below.

The visible shoulder title on one lad confirms that they are a Territorial Force unit (a prewar part-time auxiliary unit).

Edited 8 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

The warrant officer RAF photo could be after the war into the 1920s. 

 

Edited 8 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The warrant officer RAF photo could be after the war into the 1920s. 

Thanks for your evaluation - that was a potential/idea I had floating around.

M

Edited 8 May , 2022 by Matlock1418

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks for your evaluation - that was a potential/idea I had floating around.

M

The coat covering the rest of his uniform didn’t help.

I’m very intrigued by the youngest photo of him.  We need a better scan of his cap.

Edited 8 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The coat covering the rest of his uniform didn’t help.

It's certainly a quite unusual, but also seemingly distinctive, style of coat [well to me anyway!]

M

Edited 8 May , 2022 by Matlock1418

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

It's certainly a quite unusual, but also seemingly distinctive, style of coat [well to me anyway!]

M

Yes, I agree and have never seen one of that type before.  It appears to be a pull-over-your-head type Mackintosh and I don’t know if it’s issue, but assuming it is, as he’s a warrant officer without too much latitude in dress. 

Edited 8 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

I think his first enlistment was as a boy with the local Yorkshire Hussars Yeomanry.

HQ = York.

A Squadron = Leeds and Ilkley.

B Squadron = York, Bedale, Thirsk, Helmsley and Malton.

C Squadron = Knaresborough, Harrogate, Bradford, Easingwold and Ripon.

D Squadron = Middlesbrough and Scarborough.

After war was declared on 4 August 1914 the regiment mobilised under the command of Lt-Col Stanyforth at Tower Road and at the drill stations. It then went to its war stations with the Yorkshire Mounted Brigade, guarding the East Yorkshire coast. D Squadron was split up among the other three squadrons.

1/1st Yorkshire Hussars

Major Viscount Helmsley, officer commanding B Sqn, took command of the 1st Line of the Yorkshire Hussars with 1st Yorkshire Mounted Brigade, spending the winter of 1914–15 around Harlow in Essex. However, the brigade never operated as such; instead it was broken up in early 1915 to provide divisional cavalry squadrons for the TF and New Army infantry divisions preparing to go overseas.

 Apparent chronology of service then:

1.  Pre 1915 service with Yorkshire Hussars Yeomanry as boy entrant, probably nominally a trumpeter.

2. Transfers to or perhaps enlists with KOYLI 1915.

3. Transfers to RFC 1917.

4. Absorbed by RAF on formation Apr 1918.

5. Wounded Jun 1918.

6. On recovery continues service till Aug 1919.

7. Extends service by 2-years and discharged in 1921.  Much RAF service at that time in Iraq and on Indian Northwest Frontier, but only service record will tell.

 

Edited 9 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Arthur S]

Tonight I will post some close up scans of the badges 

Found this record online national archives 

[Matlock1418]

9 minutes ago, Arthur S said:

Found this record online national archives 

I think this RAF Service Secord only seems to note Fred WHITE's promotion/reclassification up to AC1 in 1919 [but with postings into 1921] however the photo of a RAF WO does rather seem a big leap. ??

M

[FROGSMILE]

On 09/05/2022 at 10:14, Matlock1418 said:

I think this RAF Service Secord only seems to note Fred WHITE's promotion/reclassification up to AC1 in 1919 [but with postings into 1921] however the photo of a RAF WO does rather seem a big leap. ??

M

Assuming it’s the same man.  That badge was only worn by warrant officers 1st class.  After 1919 ranks beneath wore the new, gilding metal RAF cap badge comprising large letters within a crowned wreath.  The highly polished leather gaiters are also a contributory factor.

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Arthur S said:

Tonight I will post some close up scans of the badges 

Found this record online national archives 

There’s no mention of his Army service with Yorkshire Hussars Yeomanry and KOYLI, just the RFC.  His actual Army ‘service record’ (which would have included RFC details) was probably among those destroyed in the Arnside St Bombing raid of 1941.

Edited 9 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

25 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Assuming it’s the same man.  That badge was only worn by warrant officers.  Ranks beneath wore the standard RAF cap badge comprising large letters within a crowned wreath.  The highly polished leather gaiters are also a feature.

Not doubting your ID as a RAF WO.

Have earlier asked the OP to try and clarify the identification of the man - hopefully will get a reply on that soon.

Though AC1 to potentially WO does seem a rather big leap for Fred WHITE during 1919-1921 = ???

M 

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Matlock1418 said:

Not doubting your ID as a RAF WO.

Have earlier asked the OP to try and clarify the identification of the man - hopefully will get a reply on that soon.

Though AC1 to potentially WO does seem a rather big leap for Fred WHITE during 1919-1921 = ???

M 

Yes I agree.  Confirming identity a must.

[Arthur S]

16 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

That's an interesting cap badge - I've struggled with it [but not that uncommon really!]. Was musing on the idea that it might perhaps be an early RAF one, but ... ???

We likely need help from the sorts of @Michelle Young @FROGSMILE or @CorporalPunishment These mentions should bring to their attention.

@FROGSMILE is likely to be able to help with his attire.

As a matter of interest how do you know it is Fred? - Is anything written on the back? - and if so, Who wrote it? and When?  Backs of photos can help.

M

The pictures are all from my MIL Fred who is her grandfather He died when she was 6 years old so in every picture I post is Fred confirmed by my MIL, there is nothing on the backs unfortunately. She also confirmed that Fred's mothers name was Alice 

Edited 9 May , 2022 by Arthur S

[Arthur S]

Just now, Arthur S said:

You can clearly see that the badge seems to be a RAF one 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Arthur S said:

You can clearly see that the badge seems to be a RAF one 

Yes, the arm badge in the photo with the young woman is clearly the RAF eagle and he has no apparent rank badge, which matches with his recorded rank below corporal.  It’s the warrant officers cap that throws things, as it suggests a rapid rise of at least four ranks in just two years if the photo were at the end of his service in 1921.  It’s very puzzling indeed, especially as there’s nothing on his RAF record to explain it.

Edited 9 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Tawhiri]

The 1 April 1918 RAF muster roll provides additional confirmation of most of the above. Enlisted on 9 January 1915, transferred to the RFC on 12 November 1917, and went from being AM/2 to AM/3 on formation of the RAF on 1 April 1918 with a trade of wireless operator which fits with the signalling badge in the original photo that started this thread.

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/7000189074-white-f

Unfortunately Air Force lists from the immediate post-war period only list officers, and not warrant officers, so no help there in resolving what his final rank on discharge was, beyond what is in his service record.

[Arthur S]

19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes.  The cap badge is distinctive.  See below.

The visible shoulder title on one lad confirms that they are a Territorial Force unit (a prewar part-time auxiliary unit).

https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/units/445/kings-own-yorkshire-light-infantry

 

Any chance that he was in one of those Territorial forces that are listed? 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Arthur S said:

https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/units/445/kings-own-yorkshire-light-infantry

 

Any chance that he was in one of those Territorial forces that are listed? 

I’ve no idea Arthur, genealogy is not really my thing and I leave that to the superb experts who frequent here. ‘Horses for courses’, as it were.

Edited 9 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

17 minutes ago, Arthur S said:

Any chance that he was in one of those Territorial forces that are listed? 

The photo was identified as KOYLI, TF

His MIC records KOYLI, number 4154.

As FS comments there are 'Horses for courses' so we must now hope that another more atuned member(s) can perhaps glean something from that KOYLI, 4154, number.

M

 

Edited 9 May , 2022 by Matlock1418

[Arthur S]

37 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve no idea Arthur, genealogy is not really my thing and I leave that to the superb experts who frequent here. ‘Horses for courses’, as it were.

Thanks anyway you helped a lot 

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, Arthur S said:

Thanks anyway you helped a lot 

I’m glad to help a little, and it’s not over yet.  Perhaps @kenf48might be able to add some granularity to the KOYLI regimental service number, although nothing can be promised.  The destruction of so many of the Army service records in WW2 is invariably a hurdle.

Edited 9 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Arthur S]

Not sure if this helps in the search but Fred was also a volunteer for life boat rescues in WW2 in jaywick 

 

In this pictures he is standing next to the boat 

 

[Arthur S]

Just received two new pictures from my MIL