1st World War Soldier

[Miranda Boughton]

16 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Miranda,

A search finds

John Harold Elson (b. Oundle, Northants; 1877) Pte. 10501, Grenadier Guards, KiA 29-Oct-14; widow Lydia; children, Lydia May & Constance Irene.

Is this the correct John Elson?

Regards,

JMB

Edit: But how can he not be found by CWGC???

Edit: Birth of John Elson in 1877 in Oundle NOT found by BMD!!!

There is a little strangeness here......

Yes I think this could be him.  The names are correct.  Is is likely to be him in the photo?

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Miranda Boughton said:

Yes I think this could be him.  The names are correct.  Is is likely to be him in the photo?

The timeline of his death dictates not Miranda.  He was killed in action in October 1914, and you might recall that the steel helmets seen in the photo were not issued until the Summer of 1916.

Edited 12 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

Dating the photo in the OP.  Supporting evidence. 

He has a P/PH satchel over his shoulder.  I believe the 'Old Pattern' and 'New Pattern' used identical straps and fastening as seen here.  The 'Old Pattern' was introduced in Aug 1915 (single pocket) and the 'New Pattern' in Late Spring 1916 (two pockets - one for gas goggles) 

I read that the photo, as supported by this and the previous Brodie observations, cannot be before Aug 1915 when this strap/haversack was introduced.

Edited 12 April , 2022 by TullochArd

[Miranda Boughton]

17 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Pension index card at WFA/Fold3

Address of widow & family given as: 4 Kings**yke, Whittlesey, Whittlesea, Peterborough [?? poss. King's Dyke ??]

Lydia, b. 11.2.89

Lydia May b. 27.6.12 & Constance Irene, b. 24.11.14

Claim made: 2-1-15 & 16-07-15 = 18/6 pw from 12-7-15 [10/- plus 5/- plus 3/6 pw].  The card does not indicate if Lydia remarried [But cards are not full MoP files]

Claim was made DEAD, 1931 = typically indicative of youngest child earlier reaching her 16th birthday and widow not continuing to claim.

???

M

Thanks. That's great info for the family tree.

 

[Miranda Boughton]

18 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Miranda,

Thomas N. Garner lost a brother in the Great War,

Matthew Sutton Garner, Pte. 13683, 2nd Bn. Lincolnshire Regt.; KiA October 9, 1917; CWGC gives 10th Bn; no known grave; commemorated on Tyne Cot Memorial, Belgium.

He was b. 1889, so aged about 27/8 at death, which age looks about right from the photo.

Regards,

JMB

Edit: Another brother, Christopher Garner, Pte. 90015, Sherwood Foresters (Notts & Derby) Regt. ; transferred to Labour Corps; transferred to 65th Field Ambulance, RAMC; survived the war

Thank you for the information.

 

[Miranda Boughton]

19 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Miranda,

However, John Elson was KiA in 1914, long before the steel helmet/goatskin combo came into being.

You need to provide another male relative.

Regards,

JMB

Yes I now realise that.  The research goes on.

[Miranda Boughton]

18 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Apologies and thanks for pointing that out = I'm afraid that earlier [Edit: pension transcription of] 'Whittlesey' was a typo of mine - should have been Whittlesea [will correct above to avoid further confusion]

Whittlesea, Peterborough, and Whittlesea. Cambridge.  Same place?  Wiki seems to rather think it is.

I note Whittlesey, Cambridge, appears to be the current name according to Wiki.

M

Whittlesea is the old spelling.  In fact the railway station still has signs spelt that way.  Older generations still use the old spelling!

[The Inspector]

7 hours ago, Miranda Boughton said:

Hi Barry.  It does indeed.  It looks like my husbands grandfather and he got married in 1924.

 

Hi Miranada,

I think we may be barking up the wrong tree!  Here is my contribution......you can't always rely on family stories.

You say the photo I posted looks like your husband's grandfather, do you have this photo? The reason I ask is I think you may have the wrong date of death for Thomas Nathan Garner. You state he died in 1945, where did you get that date from, do you have his death cert?

Was your husband's father Derek Tom Boughton, died 1992. Peterborough. married Eileen M Garner, Whittlesey 1951?

There was a Thomas Nathan Garner  died 16th April, 1962 at Rauceby Hospital, Sleaford, Lincs. Home address given on probate as  29 Inhams Road, Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire. He left a will and probate was granted to Eileen Mary Boughton, a married woman. That Thomas Nathan Garner was born  1890, reg'd 3rd qtr, Huntingdon,  3b, 27. His father was Hedley Vickers Garner. b.1862. d.1903. (Previously mentioned)

The photo I posted is of Tom Harold Boughton , he was Pte. 655 / 145067 of the Northampton Yeomanry and entered a theatre of war on 6.11.14.. He received the Brit/Vic and 14 Star. He died in 1976. Tonbridge , Kent. (16, 1899).   Over to the military experts.........

Tom Harold Boughton was Derek Tom Boughton's father.

Regards Barry

 

Edited 12 April , 2022 by The Inspector

[Miranda Boughton]

3 minutes ago, The Inspector said:

Hi Miranada,

I think we may be barking up the wrong tree!  Here is my contribution......you can't always rely on family stories.

You say the photo I posted looks like your husband's grandfather, do you have this photo? The reason I ask is I think you may have the wrong date of death for Thomas Nathan Garner. You state he died in 1945, where did you get that date from, do you have his death cert?

Was your husband's father Derek Tom Boughton, died 1992. Peterborough. married Eileen M Garner, Whittlesey 1951?

There was a Thomas Nathan Garner  died 16th April, 1962 at Rauceby Hospital, Sleaford, Lincs. Home address given on probate as  29 Inhams Road, Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire. He left a will and probate was granted to Eileen Mary Boughton, a married woman. That Thomas Nathan Garner was born  1890, reg'd 3rd qtr, Huntingdon,  3b, 27. His father was Hedley Vickers Garner. b.1862. d.1903. (Previously mentioned)

The photo I posted is of Tom Harold Boughton b. 30.4.1895 , he was Pte. 655 / 145067 of the Northampton Yeomanry and entered a theatre of war on 6.11.14.. He received the Brit/Vic and 14 Star. He died in 1976. Tonbridge , Kent. (16, 1899).   Over to the military experts.........

Tom Harold Boughton was Derek Tom Boughton's father.

Regards Barry

 

Oh dear I think you have the two sides of my husbands family mixed up.

The picture you posted is Tom Boughton (no middle name), my husband's grandfather on his father's side.   I knew him well and when my husband saw the picture on my screen he said "Grandad" without prompting.  As far as I know he didn't serve as he worked for the railway.  I don't have that particular photo but have others of all the family.  It's been easier to trace that side as we have living relatives.

I believe I may have posted the wrong dates for Thomas Nathan Garner's death.  He is the TN Garner you mention as dying in 1962.  The information you have is correct..  Apologies for confusing everyone.

[Miranda Boughton]

6 minutes ago, Miranda Boughton said:

Oh dear I think you have the two sides of my husbands family mixed up.

The picture you posted is Tom Boughton (no middle name), my husband's grandfather on his father's side.   I knew him well and when my husband saw the picture on my screen he said "Grandad" without prompting.  As far as I know he didn't serve as he worked for the railway.  I don't have that particular photo but have others of all the family.  It's been easier to trace that side as we have living relatives.

I believe I may have posted the wrong dates for Thomas Nathan Garner's death.  He is the TN Garner you mention as dying in 1962.  The information you have is correct..  Apologies for confusing everyone.

Whoever owns the photo and has labelled it as Tom Harold Boughton is not correct.

[Miranda Boughton]

20 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Miranda,

In addition to Christopher & Matthew S., your Thomas N. Garner had other brothers, all of whom may have had military service:-

Nathan (1887-1962), Percival A. (1888-1939), Daniel (1890-1929) and Hedley V. Garner (1898-1931).

There is a photo (studio-posed) named as Hedley V. in a tree on Ancestry. He does look VERY similar to the man in your wartime photo.

I am reluctant to just purloin the photo

Do you have Ancestry? If so, you might contact the owner of the tree (jacqueline mould Family tree) to compare notes.

If not, then I will contact to ask if I may download the photo.

His cap badge looks like a castle in the centre of a circular wreath which surmounted by a crown, but he has a collar badge apparently of two pillars with a castle keep between.

Regards,

JMB

I don't use Ancestry so if you are able to obtain a copy of the pic that would be great.  I have another picture of a soldier from the Suffolk Regiment.  I wonder if they are linked - again I don't know who he is at the moment.

Thank you.

 

 

[Matlock1418]

18 minutes ago, Miranda Boughton said:

I have another picture of a soldier from the Suffolk Regiment.

Unless there is a photographer's mark that contradicts me [?] I reckon that photo has the hallmarks of being taken overseas = background [British ones commonly more 'grand'], lack of belt [just taken his webbing off?], lack of swagger stick [mandatory for walking out in the UK], and tanned/dirty hands [fresh from the front line?]

@FROGSMILE may perhaps be able to comment on his jacket & pockets etc. - date??

Edited 12 April , 2022 by Matlock1418
addit

[The Inspector]

2 hours ago, Miranda Boughton said:

Whoever owns the photo and has labelled it as Tom Harold Boughton is not correct.

Hi Miranda,

Thanks for the update....so Tom Boughton born 1st April, 1905 was a railway fireman, Derek Tom's father, in 1939 living in the LNER Cottages, New England, Peterborough.

The photo is only on one Ancestry tree and therefore the tree owner must be related to your husband. Sending you a PM as they may be able to help. The trees do get somewhat complicated with multiple marriages.....searching

Regards Barry

[JMB1943]

2 hours ago, Miranda Boughton said:

I don't use Ancestry so if you are able to obtain a copy of the pic that would be great.  I have another picture of a soldier from the Suffolk Regiment.  I wonder if they are linked - again I don't know who he is at the moment.

Thank you.

Miranda,

I have just contacted the tree owner.

So, 2 x Suffolk Regt. soldiers---the plot thickens!

Regards,

JMB

[The Inspector]

4 hours ago, Miranda Boughton said:

Whoever owns the photo and has labelled it as Tom Harold Boughton is not correct.

Hi Miranda,

Thanks for the update....so Tom Boughton born 1st April, 1905 was a railway fireman, Derek Tom's father, in 1939 living in the LNER Cottages, New England, Peterborough.

The photo is only on one Ancestry tree and therefore the tree owner must be related to your husband. Sending you a PM as they may be able to help. The trees do get somewhat complicated with multiple marriages.....searching

Regards Barry

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Unless there is a photographer's mark that contradicts me [?] I reckon that photo has the hallmarks of being taken overseas = background [British ones commonly more 'grand'], lack of belt [just taken his webbing off?], lack of swagger stick [mandatory for walking out in the UK], and tanned/dirty hands [fresh from the front line?]

@FROGSMILE may perhaps be able to comment on his jacket & pockets etc. - date??

It’s a standard SD jacket so no real date significance I’m afraid.  The lanyard is for his clasp knife and he’s plaited it to shorten it.  I concur with your other observations. 

Edited 12 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[The Inspector]

On 11/04/2022 at 19:26, Matlock1418 said:

Doh! Should have spotted that!

Pension card at WFA/Fold3 for Pte. Matthew S GARNER, 13683 Lincolnshire Regt.

Claim made by: Mother, Mrs Sarah RICHARDSON, 12 Windmill St, Whittlesea, Cambridge

But Refusal. Claimant remarried.

MIC shows: France, 27/7/15 for a 1914-15 Star, BWM & VM - thus quite likely to have been around for winter 1915-16 and/or 1916-17

M

Hi All,

Just for info. Family tree here.....https://www.ancestry.co.uk/mediaui-viewer/tree/12449965/person/26145819494/media/21634b49-1de7-49ff-b5bd-9e1740e5e294

Regards Barry

 

[JMB1943]

On 11/04/2022 at 15:26, JMB1943 said:

Miranda,

In addition to Christopher & Matthew S., your Thomas N. Garner had other brothers, all of whom may have had military service:-

Nathan (1887-1962), Percival A. (1888-1939), Daniel (1890-1929) and Hedley V. Garner (1898-1931).

There is a photo (studio-posed) named as Hedley V. in a tree on Ancestry. He does look VERY similar to the man in your wartime photo.

I am reluctant to just purloin the photo

Do you have Ancestry? If so, you might contact the owner of the tree (jacqueline mould Family tree) to compare notes.

If not, then I will contact to ask if I may download the photo.

His cap badge looks like a castle in the centre of a circular wreath which surmounted by a crown, but he has a collar badge apparently of two pillars with a castle keep between.

Regards,

JMB

Here is the photo of Hedley V. Garner [verified by "my husband's mother Olive Edwards (nee Chapman)"], provided by courtesy of Jacqueline Mould. Is he the same man as in the OP photo, or is anther brother/cousin?

Regards,

JMB

Edited 18 April , 2022 by JMB1943
Add info.

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, JMB1943 said:

Here is the photo of Hedley V. Garner [verified by "my husband's mother Olive Edwards (nee Chapman)"], provided by courtesy of Jacqueline Mould. Is he the same man as in the OP photo, or is anther brother/cousin?

Regards,

JMB

There is a strong facial resemblance.  I’d say it’s either him or a close family member.  Very well spotted indeed JMB.  Personally I think you’ve cracked it 👍

Edited 14 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[The Inspector]

On 14/04/2022 at 20:22, FROGSMILE said:

There is a strong facial resemblance.  I’d say it’s either him or a close family member.  Very well spotted indeed JMB.  Personally I think you’ve cracked it 👍

Hi All,

As FROGSMILE has posted, quite right. I have been searching for any references to military service for Hedley Vickers Garner, 1898-1931. If the pic. in the OP  and the later one of the soldier in the Suffolk Regt.  are the same man then I would have thought, having presumably served abroad due to his winter attire, that he would have a MIC.  if nothing else.

All combinations of searches result in a blank.

Am I missing something?   I know the tree owner , Jacqueline Mould, has indicated that her husband's mother has ID'd the soldier but there is a distinct possibility that he may be a close relative and not Hedley Vickers Garner. The tree in question has the 2nd photo but annotated to Hedley Vickers Garner, 1863-1903, the father of "our" soldier !

None of the trees on Ancestry has any further information. Has anyone else?

Regards Barry

Edited 17 April , 2022 by The Inspector

[The Inspector]

Hi All, 

A bit more family history......

Here is a photo of Hedley Garner's son, Bramwell Wycliffe Garner b. June 1929 Whiitlesey d. Jan 2003 Fenland, Cambridgeshire.

Hedley married Lucy Constance Alberta Hustler 1902-1995 in  Sept.1924.  Whittlesey, (3b,1431)also had a daughter "Mavis"...Prudence Ranhar 1926-2013.

Edited 17 April , 2022 by The Inspector

[CorporalPunishment]

On 12/04/2022 at 17:14, Miranda Boughton said:

I don't use Ancestry so if you are able to obtain a copy of the pic that would be great.  I have another picture of a soldier from the Suffolk Regiment.  I wonder if they are linked - again I don't know who he is at the moment.

Thank you.

 

 

For what it's worth, I am in no doubt that this man is also the man in the opening post.      Pete.

[The Inspector]

7 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

For what it's worth, I am in no doubt that this man is also the man in the opening post.      Pete.

Hi Pete, 

I'm inclined to agree but can't find any reference to his military service which would be conclusive.

Regards Barry

[The Inspector]

Hi All,

I think this one may be our man, (Previously posted by Matlock)

Thomas Garner, Pte.26801 Suffolk Regt. Mother Sarah Richardson, 12 Windmill St., Whittlesey, Cambridge. ???Thomas Nathan Garner ??? 1890-1962.

Was a POW.

Regards Barry

Edited 18 April , 2022 by The Inspector

[The Inspector]

On 11/04/2022 at 20:54, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks FS for the SR images

Now here is a very interesting Pension Index Card for Thomas Nathan GARNER, 26801, Suffolk Regt.

Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3

Check those ELSON names out!

Rather looks to me like Thomas Nathan GARNER married Lydia [widow of John Harold ELSON] thus becoming the step-father of ELSON's daughters, Lydia and Constance.

Lydia's remarriage would explain the pension claim for ELSON ending when their youngest daughter reached 16 [Details above - Lydia would already have lost her pension on remarriage - she probably got a remarriage gratuity of 1-2 year's pension depending on the date of her remarriage (Edit: I believe 1 year's worth in 1921)]

And that they all ended up on the Isle of Wight.

From FreeBMD: Marriages Dec 1921 Garner, Thomas N          Elson     Whittlesey     3b    1458 [There is a similar entry for Lydia Elson]

And from FreeBMD: Births Sep 1890 Garner,  Thomas Nathan           Huntingdon     3b    257 = a man in his mid-20s during the GW [similar age to the OP ???] 

So that seems to match Miranda's family observations above.

Got to admit that Thomas Nathan GARNER might fit the bill for the photo, and explain why it was in the GARNER family - Perhaps!! ???

There's a MIC for Thomas GARNER, 26801, Suffolk = BWM and VM 'pair' only [so overseas after 31/12/1915] - I wonder if the Medal Roll sheds any more light on his service?

I don't have acccess to see the MRs or if there are any other records for these soldiers

M

His service records are here....https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1219/images/30836_146021-00161?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=6a9ce64e54ba42aae00ebd77283ced05&usePUB=true&_phsrc=eqp196&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.8148530.1014736161.1650037482-294284036.1648741521&pId=767513

The  photos were in the possession of Miranda's late mother in law, Eileen Mary Garner,  the daughter of Thomas Nathan Garner, so no surprise that she kept them.

Regards Barry

Edited 17 April , 2022 by The Inspector