1st World War Soldier

[Miranda Boughton]

I have a photo of an unknown ancestor which was amongst my late mother-in-laws possessions.  There are no clues about his name but I'm assuming 1st World War.  Is it likely that he was a Royal Fusilier?  I might then be able to trace through possible names on our family tree.

 

[6RRF]

I'm not sure about this photie at all. The puttees are weirdly bound, he has 1914 pattern leather equipment, which suggests New Army, he has a Brodie helmet, but I can't help feeling the goatskin coat is a bit earlier. And then there's the flower pots...

I'd be inclined to think that this one was taken at home while on leave from the front, but the puttees are unique

Edited 4 March , 2022 by 6RRF

[GWF1967]

Smashing photograph, if you can suggest any possible candidates you’d be amazed what can be unearthed. Names, date/place of birth, parents, siblings; it can all help. 

[roughdiamond]

Saw puttees crossed like that in a Twitter post commented on by Taff Gillingham last week, (see attached screenshot)

As for taken in the UK I'd be more inclined to a photo taken in a rest area Winter/Spring 1915/16. Sadly no unit insignia is visible to narrow it to a unit.

[MaureenE]

In respect of the puttees,  How to wrap puttees, with crossing turns by James Heath Jul 9, 2014 YouTube video.

Maureen

Edit: Previous topic about the goatskin jackets issued winter of 1914-1915

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/245826-ww1-cold-weather-kit/#comment-2610674

 

Edited 4 March , 2022 by MaureenE

[FROGSMILE]

Crossed over puttees are not unique at all.  There were a variety of patterns and the methodology was based on bandaging techniques taught as first aid by RAMC orderlies prewar.  There are plenty of images showing these in the forum in threads going back over a decade.  They can be found via forum search.  

NB. One of the rationales was that the cross over method facilitated a better conformation with the shape of the limb (lower leg), which was helpful for the then issue straight sided puttees.  Later on puttees were manufactured with an inbuilt curve that had been a design feature of the FOX puttees purchased by officers. The curve better fitted the shape from ankle to top of calf.

Edited 11 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

On 04/03/2022 at 14:37, Miranda Boughton said:

I have a photo of an unknown ancestor which was amongst my late mother-in-laws possessions.  There are no clues about his name but I'm assuming 1st World War.  Is it likely that he was a Royal Fusilier?  I might then be able to trace through possible names on our family tree.

 

I forgot to say what a very good photo of a New Army, or perhaps Territorial Force soldier this is.  As well as the animal skin jerkin used in the early winters, it shows especially well the appearance of fully loaded ammunition pouches of the 1914 emergency leather equipment issued in lieu of the intended cotton web.  Unfortunately his regimental insignia, which would be a shoulder title,  Miranda, is obscured by the jerkin so it’s impossible to know if he was a Royal Fusilier (which is entirely possible).

[Miranda Boughton]

22 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I forgot to say what a very good photo of a New Army, or perhaps Territorial Force soldier this is.  As well as the animal skin jerkin used in the early winters, it shows especially well the appearance of fully loaded ammunition pouches of the 1914 emergency leather equipment issued in lieu of the intended cotton web.  Unfortunately his regimental insignia, which would be a shoulder title,  Miranda, is obscured by the jerkin so it’s impossible to know if he was a Royal Fusilier (which is entirely possible).

Thank you, the photo is quite stunning isn't it.  The research is ongoing to find out who he may be, with so many relatives to check out regarding relevant dates and possible links.

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Miranda Boughton said:

Thank you, the photo is quite stunning isn't it.  The research is ongoing to find out who he may be, with so many relatives to check out regarding relevant dates and possible links.

Yes it really is an excellent photograph and is so typical of the dress of an infantryman at a particular period in WW1 that it would make an excellent book image.  It would be useful as an example demonstrating visually how the weight of ammunition affected the balance of the pouches.  It’s one of the best that I’ve ever seen.

Edited 8 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Miranda Boughton]

I really want to identify him and then I'd be happy to make it available with a credit to the family name.

 

[dickaren]

The Brodie helmet dates the photo to 1916 or later.

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, dickaren said:

The Brodie helmet dates the photo to 1916 or later.

Yes, a very good point.  Likely Winter 1916 then.

[Miranda Boughton]

2 hours ago, dickaren said:

The Brodie helmet dates the photo to 1916 or later.

Yes someone on another site had mentioned that.  It's very helpful in trying to identify him as everyone has said, unfortunately he has no insignia on show to identify unit.

[The Inspector]

On 04/03/2022 at 14:37, Miranda Boughton said:

I have a photo of an unknown ancestor which was amongst my late mother-in-laws possessions.  There are no clues about his name but I'm assuming 1st World War.  Is it likely that he was a Royal Fusilier?  I might then be able to trace through possible names on our family tree.

Hi Miranda,

If you  post your late mother in law's details and as much family info. as possible then we have somewhere to start looking to ID the soldier. In all probability someone else may have the same photo or one similar. It might be a needle in a haystack but the GWF has very strong magnets! 

Regards Barry

[Guest]

Mates,

I was intersted why you would say it had to be taken in the UK because of the Flower Pots?

I don't know about British units, but Australian units were next to damaged or destroyed houses in France, where they were flower beds, but your right none show pots in the photos, so does that mean there were no flower pots in France?

Didn't the french use flower pots?

When I was there in the 80's I brought a flower in a pot and left it on my GF brothers grave, for the cemetery staff to plant, was that new to France?

S.B

[Gunner 87]

4 minutes ago, stevebecker said:

Mates,

I was intersted why you would say it had to be taken in the UK because of the Flower Pots?

I don't know about British units, but Australian units were next to damaged or destroyed houses in France, where they were flower beds, but your right none show pots in the photos, so does that mean there were no flower pots in France?

Didn't the french use flower pots?

When I was there in the 80's I brought a flower in a pot and left it on my GF brothers grave, for the cemetery staff to plant, was that new to France?

S.B

S.B. I took it to mean the flower pots, that fact that they were cultivated, suggested the photograph was taken in a garden on home leave. Hear what you are saying though ...

[ajsmith]

I was under the impression they weren't allowed to take ammo on home leave just their rifles, of course it doesn't mean they necessarily stuck to the regulations.

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, ajsmith said:

I was under the impression they weren't allowed to take ammo on home leave just their rifles, of course it doesn't mean they necessarily stuck to the regulations.

You’re right, ammunition was handed in before embarking.  There seem to me to be two possibilities, either the photo was taken in the garden of a house where the soldier was billeted over winter whilst undergoing training in the U.K. (this occurred widely for winters 1914 and 1915, but less so thereafter due to a massive increase in hutted camps), or it was taken outside a billet in a rear area in France (these too were widespread for units when out of the line).  On balance, the wearing of a helmet suggests during, or after 1916, and the wearing of an animal skin jerkin, suggests France and Flanders.

Edited 9 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[robbie56]

Is that a fig in the pot plant ? If so I think they only have leaves in warm months/climate. Seems at odds with the fur top unless he was maybe active in a nearby highland area ?

[TEW]

I thought Fatsia Japonica which is evergreen. Flowers late autumn and no flowers in the photo.

TEW

[Matlock1418]

For what it is worth =

• Would a goatskin really end up back in Britain when most needed in a ToW?
• The pile of rubble/debris seems less like a UK garden and also suggests to me a ToW.

M

[Ron Clifton]

I believe that goatskin jerkins were classed as "trench stores" and handed over to relieving battalions. They were not part of a soldier's own kit.

Ron

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

I believe that goatskin jerkins were classed as "trench stores" and handed over to relieving battalions. They were not part of a soldier's own kit.

Was my thought - though it appears pretty clean.

M

Edited 10 April , 2022 by Matlock1418

[FROGSMILE]

The following was written by Joe Sweeney on 20th Dec 2002:

”The Fur coats, which could be made of any type of fur not just goat skin, are also correct. No official pattern was again produced and many diverse varieties can be seen in photos and again these were received through comforts funds. I have a Fur coat that was supplied as a "Gift of Seamans Furs, War Project, Ontario Division, Toronto 1916" and is not Goat.”

“Although, issued to everyone initially after the winter of 1915 fur coats were relegated to second line duties and the Leather Jerkin was supplied to front duties. An example being GRO 1204 of 13/10/15 (Winter Scale of issue lists "Leather Jerkin, or under coats fur" (This is not the same as the fur coat we are talking about) --For all services at the Front except those issued the "Coat, sheepskin lined" (Again not the fur coat we have been talking about). The Jerkins could be worn in lieu of the Great Coats. I have a 1918 dated British Jerkin and it is a very nice piece of warm clothing.”

The similar photo below comes from this thread of some years back: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/167671-sheepskin-coats/

NB. Apparently the goatskins were of Angora type whose skins could allegedly more readily be brushed clean by virtue of the long hair.  Sheepskin became matted and so were ordered to be worn with the pile on the inside.

Edited 10 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Acknown]

16 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Although, issued to everyone initially after the winter of 1915

The 7th Canadian Battalion was issued with goatskin coats at St. Nazaire whilst still on board their transport from England (The Cardiganshire, an old cattle boat) in mid-February 1915.

Apart from that unhelpful observation (Brodie), I would judge the individual to be somewhat mature - in his 30s?

Acknown

Edited 10 April , 2022 by Acknown