FROGSMILE Posted 10 April , 2022 Share Posted 10 April , 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Acknown said: The 7th Canadian Battalion was issued with goatskin coats at St. Nazaire whilst still on board their transport from England (The Cardiganshire, an old cattle boat) in mid-February 1915. Apart from that unhelpful observation (Brodie), I would judge the individual to be somewhat mature - in his 30s? Acknown I don’t know where Joe Sweeney got that information that you quoted from within my post, but he was generally meticulously well researched. Perhaps he meant that it became standard issue after that date, which doesn’t of course mean that there weren’t other trial type issues beforehand. It’s important to bear in mind that such coats weren’t a new idea, they (similar) had been worn by British soldiers in India on the North West Frontier during 1880s campaigning (inspired by the Afghan ‘Poshteen’) and even in the Crimean War winter of 1855! Edited 10 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acknown Posted 10 April , 2022 Share Posted 10 April , 2022 It seems that GWF has trod this way before! Acknown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 April , 2022 Share Posted 10 April , 2022 (edited) 23 hours ago, Acknown said: It seems that GWF has trod this way before! Acknown Yes, that is the same thread link that I enclosed just a few posts back along with a similar photograph to that posted by the OP. Edited 11 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 10 April , 2022 Share Posted 10 April , 2022 Hi Miranda, If you can give us a clue as to your mother in law we may be able to help you quicker than you think. Does this photo, .mean anything to you, taken in 1924, Regards Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 10 April , 2022 Share Posted 10 April , 2022 12 hours ago, Ron Clifton said: I believe that goatskin jerkins were classed as "trench stores" and handed over to relieving battalions. They were not part of a soldier's own kit. Ron My father clearly remembered his father (2RSR) home on leave in the Winter of 15/16 wearing his sheepskin. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Boughton Posted 11 April , 2022 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2022 On 09/04/2022 at 09:26, The Inspector said: Hi Miranda, If you post your late mother in law's details and as much family info. as possible then we have somewhere to start looking to ID the soldier. In all probability someone else may have the same photo or one similar. It might be a needle in a haystack but the GWF has very strong magnets! Regards Barry Well it's worth a go! My mother-in-law was was Eileen Garner, the family lived in the Fens. Mainly in Whittlesey, near Peterborough, which has moved counties from Huntingdonshire, Soke of Peterborough and Northamptonshire and is now Cambridgeshire. All of which doesn't make it any easier to trace folk. She was born in 1929 and her father was Thomas Nathan Garner 1890-1945. Her mother's first husband was John Elson born in 1880 - he married Eileen's mother in 1912 and I haven't yet been able to find a date of death so I suppose he is a possible contender. I'd definitely be grateful if anyone is interested in doing some detective work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 (edited) Miranda, CWGC shows only John Ernest (24 yrs), John Charles (39 yrs) & William John (25 yrs) Elson for British Army deaths. None of those fit the bill for a John Elson b. 1880. Regards, JMB Edit: There is a marriage of John Elson to a Miss Lydia Brakes, Whittlesey, registered in May-June, 1912 Edited 11 April , 2022 by JMB1943 typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 36 minutes ago, Miranda Boughton said: married Eileen's mother in 1912 Are you able to help us with Eileen's mother's forename(s) and/or surname at 1912 marriage please? M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 (edited) Miranda, A search finds John Harold Elson (b. Oundle, Northants; 1877) Pte. 10501, Grenadier Guards, KiA 29-Oct-14; widow Lydia; children, Lydia May & Constance Irene. Is this the correct John Elson? Regards, JMB Edit: But how can he not be found by CWGC??? Edit: Birth of John Elson in 1877 in Oundle NOT found by BMD!!! There is a little strangeness here...... Edited 11 April , 2022 by JMB1943 Add info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, JMB1943 said: John Harold Elson (b. Oundle, Northants; 1877) Pte. 10501, Grenadier Guards, KiA 29-Oct-14; widow Lydia; children, Lydia May & Constance Irene. Pension index card at WFA/Fold3 Address of widow & family given as: 4 Kings**yke, Whittlesey, Whittlesea, Peterborough [?? poss. King's Dyke ??] Lydia, b. 11.2.89 Lydia May b. 27.6.12 & Constance Irene, b. 24.11.14 Claim made: 2-1-15 & 16-07-15 = 18/6 pw from 12-7-15 [10/- plus 5/- plus 3/6 pw]. The card does not indicate if Lydia remarried [But cards are not full MoP files] Claim was made DEAD, 1931 = typically indicative of youngest child earlier reaching her 16th birthday and widow not continuing to claim. ??? M Edited 11 April , 2022 by Matlock1418 strike & correction of Whittlesea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 24 minutes ago, JMB1943 said: Edit: But how can he not be found by CWGC??? He is: J. ELSON https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/160335/j-elson M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 Mat lock, Thank you for saving my sanity. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 Miranda, However, John Elson was KiA in 1914, long before the steel helmet/goatskin combo came into being. You need to provide another male relative. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 (edited) Miranda, Thomas N. Garner lost a brother in the Great War, Matthew Sutton Garner, Pte. 13683, 2nd Bn. Lincolnshire Regt.; KiA October 9, 1917; CWGC gives 10th Bn; no known grave; commemorated on Tyne Cot Memorial, Belgium. He was b. 1889, so aged about 27/8 at death, which age looks about right from the photo. Regards, JMB Edit: Another brother, Christopher Garner, Pte. 90015, Sherwood Foresters (Notts & Derby) Regt. ; transferred to Labour Corps; transferred to 65th Field Ambulance, RAMC; survived the war Edited 11 April , 2022 by JMB1943 Add info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 (edited) 44 minutes ago, JMB1943 said: However, John Elson was KiA in 1914, long before the steel helmet/goatskin combo came into being. Doh! Should have spotted that! 14 minutes ago, JMB1943 said: Thomas N. Garner lost a brother in the Great War, Matthew Sutton Garner, Pte. 13683, 2nd Bn. Lincolnshire Regt.; KiA October 9, 1917; CWGC gives 10th Bn; no known grave; commemorated on Tyne Cot Memorial, Belgium. He was b. 1889, so aged about 27/8 at death, which age looks about right from the photo. Pension card at WFA/Fold3 for Pte. Matthew S GARNER, 13683 Lincolnshire Regt. Claim made by: Mother, Mrs Sarah RICHARDSON, 12 Windmill St, Whittlesea, Cambridge But Refusal. Claimant remarried. MIC shows: France, 27/7/15 for a 1914-15 Star, BWM & VM - thus quite likely to have been around for winter 1915-16 and/or 1916-17 M Edited 11 April , 2022 by Matlock1418 correction & addit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 Matlock, MIC has 13683 as Matthew S. Garner...... Interesting that Whittlesey has become Whittlesea. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 (edited) 33 minutes ago, JMB1943 said: Interesting that Whittlesey has become Whittlesea. Apologies and thanks for pointing that out = I'm afraid that earlier [Edit: pension transcription of] 'Whittlesey' was a typo of mine - should have been Whittlesea [will correct above to avoid further confusion] Whittlesea, Peterborough, and Whittlesea. Cambridge. Same place? Wiki seems to rather think it is. I note Whittlesey, Cambridge, appears to be the current name according to Wiki. M Edited 11 April , 2022 by Matlock1418 addit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 6 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Apologies and thanks for pointing that out = I'm afraid that earlier 'Whittlesey' was a typo of mine - should have been Whittlesea [will correct above to avoid further confusion] Whittlesea, Peterborough, and Whittlesea. Cambridge. Same place? Wiki seems to rather think it is. I note Whittlesey, Cambridge, appears to be the current name according to Wiki. M No, I think that Whittlesey on BMD in 1880's IS now Whittlesea, maybe..... Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, JMB1943 said: I think that Whittlesey on BMD in 1880's IS now Whittlesea, maybe..... Not local to there so I can't really say - but OS currently have as Whittlesey [Cambridge] though it is very close to Peterborough. Whatever it is called now it seems to potentially have an interest for the OP and those Garners. M Edited 11 April , 2022 by Matlock1418 addit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 Miranda, In addition to Christopher & Matthew S., your Thomas N. Garner had other brothers, all of whom may have had military service:- Nathan (1887-1962), Percival A. (1888-1939), Daniel (1890-1929) and Hedley V. Garner (1898-1931). There is a photo (studio-posed) named as Hedley V. in a tree on Ancestry. He does look VERY similar to the man in your wartime photo. I am reluctant to just purloin the photo Do you have Ancestry? If so, you might contact the owner of the tree (jacqueline mould Family tree) to compare notes. If not, then I will contact to ask if I may download the photo. His cap badge looks like a castle in the centre of a circular wreath which surmounted by a crown, but he has a collar badge apparently of two pillars with a castle keep between. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 13 minutes ago, JMB1943 said: His cap badge looks like a castle in the centre of a circular wreath which surmounted by a crown, but he has a collar badge apparently of two pillars with a castle keep between. Could that possibly be Suffolk Regt? ??? though a photo would probably help Possibly one for @FROGSMILE ?? chances are he might be able to offer examples for comparison. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: Could that possibly be Suffolk Regt? ??? though a photo would probably help Possibly one for @FROGSMILE ?? chances are he might be able to offer examples for comparison. M Yes, what you describe rather well is the insignia of the Suffolk Regiment. The twin turret collar badge was the pattern used at that time, but changed between the world wars. Edited 12 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 11 April , 2022 Share Posted 11 April , 2022 (edited) On 11/04/2022 at 20:26, JMB1943 said: His cap badge looks like a castle in the centre of a circular wreath which surmounted by a crown, but he has a collar badge apparently of two pillars with a castle keep between. On 11/04/2022 at 20:52, FROGSMILE said: Yes, what you describe rather well is the insignia of the Suffolk Regiment. Thanks FS for the SR images Now here is a very interesting Pension Index Card for Thomas Nathan GARNER, 26801, Suffolk Regt. Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3 Check those ELSON names out! Rather looks to me like Thomas Nathan GARNER married Lydia [widow of John Harold ELSON] thus becoming the step-father of ELSON's daughters, Lydia and Constance. Lydia's remarriage would explain the pension claim for ELSON ending when their youngest daughter reached 16 [Details above - Lydia would already have lost her pension on remarriage - she probably got a remarriage gratuity of 1-2 year's pension depending on the date of her remarriage (Edit: I believe 1 year's worth in 1921)] And that they all ended up on the Isle of Wight. Correction: IOW = Issue Office Widows' From FreeBMD: Marriages Dec 1921 Garner, Thomas N Elson Whittlesey 3b 1458 [There is a similar entry for Lydia Elson] And from FreeBMD: Births Sep 1890 Garner, Thomas Nathan Huntingdon 3b 257 = a man in his mid-20s during the GW [similar age to the OP ???] So that seems to match Miranda's family observations above. Got to admit that Thomas Nathan GARNER might fit the bill for the photo, and explain why it was in the GARNER family - Perhaps!! ??? There's a MIC for Thomas GARNER, 26801, Suffolk = BWM and VM 'pair' only [so overseas after 31/12/1915] - I wonder if the Medal Roll sheds any more light on his service? I don't have acccess to see the MRs or if there are any other records for these soldiers M Edited 24 November , 2022 by Matlock1418 strike and correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Boughton Posted 12 April , 2022 Author Share Posted 12 April , 2022 On 10/04/2022 at 22:31, The Inspector said: Hi Miranda, If you can give us a clue as to your mother in law we may be able to help you quicker than you think. Does this photo, .mean anything to you, taken in 1924, Regards Barry Hi Barry. It does indeed. It looks like my husbands grandfather and he got married in 1924. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Boughton Posted 12 April , 2022 Author Share Posted 12 April , 2022 17 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: Are you able to help us with Eileen's mother's forename(s) and/or surname at 1912 marriage please? M Her name was Lydia Brakes and has been mentioned in one of the posts above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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