Frederick Robert Hill St George Cross 4th Class

[Keith_history_buff]

1. This is a basic exercise in reading comprehension, so I advise you to re-read the content. In essence, Hill is not mentioned in the book that forum member Foreign Gong has a copy of, which is what I suspected.
2. This is a rhetorical question, as to how high or low something is. I propose you read a few threads in "Soldiers and their Units" to get a feel for the manner in which other combatants service histories have been pieced together based upon surviving service records of men with similar numbers.
3. In many cases when a group of men transferred in to a unit, and were allocated a new regimental service number, their names were typically sorted alphabetically. 
4. Yes, the names of these men are on the MGC roll on Ancestry. They are also on the inventory catalogue of The National Archives for the RNAS branch service records of RN Ratings within series ADM 188.
5. Yes, this is the Official Number that he had as a RNAS rating.
6. I have nothing further to add, and have provided all that I can.
    

[Keith_history_buff]

16 minutes ago, MichaelHill said:

 

-- What suspicions were confirmed? Why and what does this mean?

-- Does this mean that Robert Dunsmore would have probably served next to RF Hill? Even though his number is quite a lot higher than RF Hills? 

-- How do you know that there was an intake (what's an intake?) from serial numbers 79855 to 79893 and that FR Hill was in it? Is there an original source / image to this?

-- Also, is there a source document / image regarding the information that those 39 MGC numbers reflect (almost exactly) forty RNAS entries in February 1918 numbered F.51143 to F.51182 who transferred MGC after a few days (including POM Hill and the afore-mentioned POM Knox, MM MiD)? 

--> --> On one of the previously posted documents Hill has number F51159!

-- In a nutshell, how much do we know and do we not know at this point and are there original images to go along with these insight (it'd be great to have a copy of those for my records)?

With regard to the service records for RNAS ratings, you can click on the following catalogue link. You can see the subsequent 30 entries, and by clicking onto "next 30", you will see the names of the subsequently numbered RNAS ratings. You can compare this against the MGC (Motors) medal roll in Ancestry.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/r/D6851059

[horatio2]

26 minutes ago, MichaelHill said:

-- Also, is there a source document / image regarding the information that those 39 MGC numbers reflect (almost exactly) forty RNAS entries in February 1918 numbered F.51143 to F.51182 who transferred MGC after a few days (including POM Hill and the afore-mentioned POM Knox, MM MiD)? 

--> --> On one of the previously posted documents Hill has number F51159!

No single source document. The indivdual ADM 188 RNAS records of those enlisting around the same time as POM HILL (F.51159) had to be stuidied to see if they too were transferred to the MGC. I found the forty stated above but there are prorobably many more - another quick check found an earlier group of nine: F.41724 to F.49732.

[corisande]

In an effort to establish his service in USC. So he clearly had links with Ulster

1. His birth in Co Londonderry

 

2. He appears to have been commissioned in 6 Mar 1919 - lg - click . And he may have left the army soon after this on 28 Apr 1919 (LG) . Someone with the time may like to investigate when he left the army

3. The photo appears to be of him as number 2 or 3 in the 1st North Belfast Btn of the Ulster Special Constabulary. I am sure that he would have worn whatever medals he could while with USC

4, There should be some mention of him in that USC role in local press - though I canot find it

5. Emigrates New York on 20 Mar 1923. He is in Linen Business

6. Returns Ireland and died 25 Sep 1955 in Dublin (Ancestry tree)

The USC is difficult to research as few (no) records exist. I tried to trace the men who went from ADRIC to USC and it was virtually impossible (see this page - click - which has USC photo

Wiki has an article on USC to give you the background . Most things  in Northern Ireland are politically sensitive, and the USC more sensitive than most others

I have "The B Specials" by Sir Arthur Hezlet" which is more narative than details of individuals, and he is not in the index

Basically you are going to find it tough to find him in USC unless there is a local paper report of his appointment or resignation

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

On 31/01/2022 at 21:59, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks for the photo

Class Z. AR 24-5-19 = Transferred to Class Z Army Reserve - essentially sent home as if demobilised but still easily and quickly recoverable into uniform should the Armistice breakdown/the Peace Treaty not get signed and it all kicked  off again [thankfully it didn't] = Effectively, as it turned out, he was demobilised for all intents and purposes. Come August 1920 the Z AR was disbanded and he was officially off that particular hook.

M

Deemed to have transferred to Class Z 24 May 1918. I wonder what the "trace" was about in February 1919 with the Naval authorities?

[horatio2]

58 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I wonder what the "trace" was about in February 1919 with the Naval authorities?

Whatever it was, it was nothing unique to HILL because the same entry is in a number of other records. Some sort of post-war tidying up between Admiralty and War Ofice records, I expect.

[MichaelHill]

3 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

1. This is a basic exercise in reading comprehension, so I advise you to re-read the content. In essence, Hill is not mentioned in the book that forum member Foreign Gong has a copy of, which is what I suspected.
2. This is a rhetorical question, as to how high or low something is. I propose you read a few threads in "Soldiers and their Units" to get a feel for the manner in which other combatants service histories have been pieced together based upon surviving service records of men with similar numbers.
3. In many cases when a group of men transferred in to a unit, and were allocated a new regimental service number, their names were typically sorted alphabetically. 
4. Yes, the names of these men are on the MGC roll on Ancestry. They are also on the inventory catalogue of The National Archives for the RNAS branch service records of RN Ratings within series ADM 188.
5. Yes, this is the Official Number that he had as a RNAS rating.
6. I have nothing further to add, and have provided all that I can.
    

Sorry, am just a bit out of my depth with all these numbers and abbreviations, thank you very much for the clarification, much appreciated!

[MichaelHill]

On 04/02/2022 at 17:07, corisande said:

In an effort to establish his service in USC. So he clearly had links with Ulster

1. His birth in Co Londonderry

 

2. He appears to have been commissioned in 6 Mar 1919 - lg - click . And he may have left the army soon after this on 28 Apr 1919 (LG) . Someone with the time may like to investigate when he left the army

3. The photo appears to be of him as number 2 or 3 in the 1st North Belfast Btn of the Ulster Special Constabulary. I am sure that he would have worn whatever medals he could while with USC

4, There should be some mention of him in that USC role in local press - though I canot find it

5. Emigrates New York on 20 Mar 1923. He is in Linen Business

6. Returns Ireland and died 25 Sep 1955 in Dublin (Ancestry tree)

The USC is difficult to research as few (no) records exist. I tried to trace the men who went from ADRIC to USC and it was virtually impossible (see this page - click - which has USC photo

Wiki has an article on USC to give you the background . Most things  in Northern Ireland are politically sensitive, and the USC more sensitive than most others

I have "The B Specials" by Sir Arthur Hezlet" which is more narative than details of individuals, and he is not in the index

Basically you are going to find it tough to find him in USC unless there is a local paper report of his appointment or resignation

 

 

Thank you for that information. It is very unfortunate that both his military record was lost due to fire and there is almost no mention of his activity in the years afterwards. I also had a look through newspaper archives but without luck, will keep trying. May I ask, do you know if there is hardly any information on this because it never existed in the first place, because it was destroyed or because it was to date never released due to its sensitivity?

Thank you for your help Corisande!

[corisande]

1 hour ago, MichaelHill said:

do you know if there is hardly any information on this because it never existed in the first place, because it was destroyed or because it was to date never released due to its sensitivity?

 A mix of all three. The USC and their operation is still "sensitive" today

Let me quote from the book I referenced above - "The B Specials" by Sir Arthur Hezlet" which is more narative than details of individuals. He writes in his foreward (published 1972). Schh he won't even mention the typist!

It is customary in a foreward to acknowledge  by name the help that one has received. In the unsettled position of this Province I do not intend to do this. I hope that all the people who have let me interview them, and who have answered my questionaires, and they range widely from personages who have held high office to ex-B men themselves, will accept this as my thanks. I also wish to thank the person who has read and criticized my drafts and the lady who did all the typing.

You could try PRONI to see if they can help/suggest

I have researched the ADRIC which has a similar public face to the USC, and in fact many ADRIC men went on to join the USC. Virtually nothing existed as an objective history when I started. Now there are 3 or 4 studies on them. As far as I am aware nobody has taken on the difficult, and indeed dangerous task of researching the USC

[MichaelHill]

On 06/02/2022 at 12:53, corisande said:

 A mix of all three. The USC and their operation is still "sensitive" today

Let me quote from the book I referenced above - "The B Specials" by Sir Arthur Hezlet" which is more narative than details of individuals. He writes in his foreward (published 1972). Schh he won't even mention the typist!

It is customary in a foreward to acknowledge  by name the help that one has received. In the unsettled position of this Province I do not intend to do this. I hope that all the people who have let me interview them, and who have answered my questionaires, and they range widely from personages who have held high office to ex-B men themselves, will accept this as my thanks. I also wish to thank the person who has read and criticized my drafts and the lady who did all the typing.

You could try PRONI to see if they can help/suggest

I have researched the ADRIC which has a similar public face to the USC, and in fact many ADRIC men went on to join the USC. Virtually nothing existed as an objective history when I started. Now there are 3 or 4 studies on them. As far as I am aware nobody has taken on the difficult, and indeed dangerous task of researching the USC

I understand, that makes sense, thank you!

[Mikhail]

Good afternoon, I'm a little interested in the history of awarding St. George's crosses and medals, we in Russia have a database of almost all holders of St. George's crosses before 1918, including foreigners, awarded in the Great War (Patrikeev's books), however, with some gaps. There is no such database of St. George's medals, unfortunately. I couldn't find your relative in the available open data. A few comments: as I understand it, your relative served in the rank of an NСO, so he could have been awarded the soldier's St. George's Cross or the St. George's medal, but not the officer's Order of St. George. Also, apparently, he received the award already during the years of the civil war in Russia (1918-1922), on behalf of the command of the white armies, and such cases are hardly documented at all.

[MichaelHill]

Hi Mikhail,

Thank you for your help in my search. Since my last post I have started reading various books on the Dunsterforce looking for further information on their armoured cars. One interesting fact, I think, was that Walter Dorling Smiles, who served in the Tsar's British Armoured Car Units, was awarded a Cross of St. George (as also already mentioned in the article referenced above but I only added two and two together when again reading about this in the book "The Race to Tabriz"). He later was Colonel Smiles of the Armoured Car Section of the Dunsterforce, where it is possible (likely even?) that FR Hill served under him (I have to admit I still don't have a good feeling for how likely this really is as I just don't know how many other possible armoured car units there would have been at the time etc but I understand from everyone's entries here, that this is indeed likely).

Given that the Dunsterforce was a small force and their armoured car units therefore would have only consisted of a relatively small group of men, I believe it is probable that there wouldn't have been that many people holding St. Georg crosses in this group; possibly Smiles was the only (or one of the only) ones. My theory therefore is that, given that he was probably in command to FR Hill it is not unlikely that Smiles would have awarded his Cross of St George to FR Hill for some valiant act. My next step now will therefore be to search out any info on Smiles and see if there might be surviving information on his experience in Persia at the time, where such an act would possibly be mentioned...