Frederick Robert Hill St George Cross 4th Class

[seaJane]

2 hours ago, MichaelHill said:

ribbon would hold the Roman numerals IV

My understanding was that only the modern revival of the medals includes the Roman numerals, but I'm happy to be corrected.

[horatio2]

15 minutes ago, MichaelHill said:

I've added a picture of him in 1922,

Posting a larger iamge  might be more helpful to our army experts than the small avatar image. I can see no detail.

[MichaelHill]

I will try to see if I can find any other military pictures of him tomorrow too.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, MichaelHill said:

I will try to see if I can find any other military pictures of him tomorrow too.

If the avatar photo is him = please post larger and in full - Who and what is around him may help us here on GWF.

M

[Keith_history_buff]

There is a medal index card for a Frederick R Hill. He has the rank of sergeant; would this rank be held by any former PO Mech from the RN Armoured Cars division who transferred to the MGC?

This man appears on roll MMG 103 B3 page 243, documenting his BWM & VM. His service number is 79864.

[Keith_history_buff]

3 hours ago, horatio2 said:

His enlistment was for the duration of HOSTILITIES

List and No. are his entries in the HMS PRESIDENT II Ship's Book = his Pay No,

MGC = Discharged to Machine Gun Corps.

His Character (C) (= Conduct) was assessed as Very Good (VG) and no Ability (A) assessment for his six days in the RNAS.

Trace written 10/2/19 = note of an administrative trace on his service. a year later. [Of no importance}

Perhaps he was transferred to Class Z in February 1919, and in so doing they had to check his prior service in the RN, hence the trace? The Senior Service still had first dibs on "claiming" men? Pure speculation on my part.

[Talesofaseadog]

11 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

There is a medal index card for a Frederick R Hill. He has the rank of sergeant; would this rank be held by any former PO Mech from the RN Armoured Cars division who transferred to the MGC?

This man appears on roll MMG 103 B3 page 243, documenting his BWM & VM. His service number is 79864.

The ranks in the two services are not exactly the same, but it is likely that he would become a sergeant if transferred to the army so it is worth investigating further.

Tony

[MichaelHill]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

If the avatar photo is him = please post larger and in full - Who and what is around him may help us here on GWF.

M

You can see the full picture here but I am not sure it is useful as this photo was taken in 1922, after WW1. It seems that after the war he joined the Ulster Special Constabulary, which this picture is from, I think (he's in the front row, just behind the guy with the dog). Although he would have been with the USC for a short while only as he then emigrated to the US the next year. One thing that seems odd (or maybe not?) is that I cannot see the St Georg ribbon on his chest, but maybe he wouldn't have worn it in such a picture, I don't know.

[MichaelHill]

51 minutes ago, Talesofaseadog said:

The ranks in the two services are not exactly the same, but it is likely that he would become a sergeant if transferred to the army so it is worth investigating further.

Tony

Part of the challenge is also that the name is quite common and there's quite a lot of documents relating to F Hills and even F R Hills. I just searched for the number 79864, I am guessing this is the one you refer to? The fact that this is in the machine gun unit seems promising, right (again, I am very new to all of this)...

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Michael, this is exactly what I was referring to, thanks for sharing.

As I understand it - firing from the hip, no recourse to sources - the armoured car men, many who came from Northern Ireland, were transferred to the army in 1918, becoming part of the (Motor) Machine Gun Corps. I am wondering if they were all transferred across and renumbered at that time. It's unusual to see sergeants only on a medal roll. It does seem to reflect them all having had the entry rank of PO Mech and therefore being remustered as Sergeants in the MGC.

[Matlock1418]

24 minutes ago, MichaelHill said:

You can see the full picture here but I am not sure it is useful as this photo was taken in 1922, after WW1. It seems that after the war he joined the Ulster Special Constabulary, which this picture is from, I think (he's in the front row, just behind the guy with the dog). Although he would have been with the USC for a short while only as he then emigrated to the US the next year. One thing that seems odd (or maybe not?) is that I cannot see the St Georg ribbon on his chest, but maybe he wouldn't have worn it in such a picture, I don't know.

Thanks for the photo - it rather reveals quite a lot more [to those who know better than me!]

14 minutes ago, MichaelHill said:

Class Z. AR 24-5-19 = Transferred to Class Z Army Reserve - essentially sent home as if demobilised but still easily and quickly recoverable into uniform should the Armistice breakdown/the Peace Treaty not get signed and it all kicked  off again [thankfully it didn't] = Effectively, as it turned out, he was demobilised for all intents and purposes. Come August 1920 the Z AR was disbanded and he was officially off that particular hook.

M

 

Edited 31 January , 2022 by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

52 minutes ago, MichaelHill said:

One thing that seems odd (or maybe not?) is that I cannot see the St Georg ribbon on his chest,

Is that not a BWM & VM 'Pair' with a further darker and narrower ribbon closest to his arm?

B/W film/photo rendition of colours often isn't great though - and as I am not a medal expert, I am now heading for cover! ;-/

M

Edited 31 January , 2022 by Matlock1418
narrower

[Keith_history_buff]

There are no surviving service record for Machine Gun Corps (Motors) men with service numbers in the range 79800-79899
One of the men in the series died in 1919 and is commemorated on the Belfast memorial by CWGC. One of the men with an earlier number (79804) is commemorated on the Basra memorial.

In the absence of anything to document him being awarded a Russian medal after October 1917, I am curious as to how he came into possession of that ribbon. 

[MichaelHill]

1 minute ago, Keith_history_buff said:

There are no surviving service record for Machine Gun Corps (Motors) men with service numbers in the range 79800-79899
One of the men in the series died in 1919 and is commemorated on the Belfast memorial by CWGC. One of the men with an earlier number (79804) is commemorated on the Basra memorial.

In the absence of anything to document him being awarded a Russian medal after October 1917, I am curious as to how he came into possession of that ribbon. 

Indeed, it would be great to find out...

[Keith_history_buff]

It looks like they went up in smoke

Quote

• Soldiers’ documents of the Machine Gun Corps up to disbandment in 1922

Source
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/the-1940-fire-at-arnside-street/

 

[MaureenE]

There has been a mention before that possibly he was with Dunsterforce and this seems  to be likely from a date point of view.

8 hours ago, horatio2 said:

More likely is service with the army in Dunsterforce in Persia and Turkey

The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Norperforce https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Norperforce has many links about Dunsterforce and one of the items  says 

"Further Adventures of the Armoured Cars: Persia and Baku" pages 285-297 Blackwood's Magazine Volume 205, January-June 1919. Archive.org. The author elsewhere is stated to be A. H. Ruston, who was Temp. Major, Machine Gun Corps (Motor). Allpress (Alpress/Alpres) Harold Ruston was awarded the DSO for actions near Baku on 26 August 1918, London Gazette entry.

• Ruston had previously been Temp. Lieut-Cdr R.N.V.R, Naval Armoured Car Squadron, during the Russian retreat in Galicia in July and August 1917. Ruston’s Naval commission was terminated 31.1.18 when he transferred to the Army ^[11], along with other personnel. The Dunsterforce Armoured Car Brigade (known as the Duncars) was formed at the end of January 1918 from personnel from the Russian Armoured Car Division who were transferred from the Admiralty (or, more precisely, the Royal Marines, under whose control they were from November 1917) to the Machine Gun Corps (Motors). Duncars were equipped with a mixture of Austin armoured cars and Ford Model T vans armed with machine guns.^[12][13][14]

Maureen

[ForeignGong]

He is not on the Confidential List for the Intervention but that does not mean he didn't receive the award as there are known to be many other recipients that are not on the Confidential List. 

[Keith_history_buff]

In the same number range is 79870 William Robert Cox, awarded the Military Medal whilst serving in Dunsterforce. His gallantry MIC states
 

Quote

Date of gazette: 66
Registered Paper: 68/121/904

Of interest

The London Gazette

Publication date:

18 February 1919

Supplement:

31195

Page:

2606

With specific mention of Dunsterforce Mission

Also

 

The London Gazette

Publication date:

19 August 1919

Supplement:

31512

Page:

10578

With specific mention of Mesopotamia

 

[MichaelHill]

11 minutes ago, MaureenE said:

There has been a mention before that possibly he was with Dunsterforce and this seems  to be likely from a date point of view.

The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Norperforce https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Norperforce has many links about Dunsterforce and one of the items  says 

"Further Adventures of the Armoured Cars: Persia and Baku" pages 285-297 Blackwood's Magazine Volume 205, January-June 1919. Archive.org. The author elsewhere is stated to be A. H. Ruston, who was Temp. Major, Machine Gun Corps (Motor). Allpress (Alpress/Alpres) Harold Ruston was awarded the DSO for actions near Baku on 26 August 1918, London Gazette entry.

• Ruston had previously been Temp. Lieut-Cdr R.N.V.R, Naval Armoured Car Squadron, during the Russian retreat in Galicia in July and August 1917. Ruston’s Naval commission was terminated 31.1.18 when he transferred to the Army ^[11], along with other personnel. The Dunsterforce Armoured Car Brigade (known as the Duncars) was formed at the end of January 1918 from personnel from the Russian Armoured Car Division who were transferred from the Admiralty (or, more precisely, the Royal Marines, under whose control they were from November 1917) to the Machine Gun Corps (Motors). Duncars were equipped with a mixture of Austin armoured cars and Ford Model T vans armed with machine guns.^[12][13][14]

Maureen

I just came across this paper, not sure if it's relevant (speaks mostly about the time before 1918 but still an interesting read on the topic: https://sci-hub.se/10.1177/0968344517696528. It seems to me that most armoured cars were used on the eastern front up until 1918 so from that point of view maybe what you are saying is more likely, that he was indeed stationed elsewhere...

 

[MaureenE]

I previously should have also said there is a FIBIS Fibiwiki page Machine Gun Corps https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Machine_Gun_Corps which does have some general information, although it is mainly about MGC in India.

The article in the post above looks interesting.

Maureen

 

[horatio2]

A review of the names on the MGC medal roll posted earlier reveals that most of those men were ex-RNAS, some of long-standing. E.g. WO2 Albert George HARTWELL [sic] was CPO Alfred George HARTWELL, F.2774 RNAS (since 1914), who had, indeed, served with the RNAS Armoured Cars in Russia. He was awarded the St Stanislas Medal in 1916 for “meritorious service under Russians at Kandalasksha”.

Others were of the same Mid-February 1918 RNAS intake as the subject of this topic, all transferring to the MGC after a few days. Looking at these in more detail reveals RNAS entries from F.49724 to F.49732 and from F.51143 to F.51182 in February 1918 (many of them from Ireland) following this route to the MGC. One of them, Sgt William Robert KNOX (ex-F.51150 RNAS) is noted as “MM”, obviously won with the MGC.

Returning to the OP’s earlier question about “List and No.” entries in the RNAS record, it is possible that the entries on all these records read “RIC 611 [et seq]” and I am wondering if this refers to a Royal Irish Constabulary link/intake/transfer.

I would not be surprised if a Russsian ribbon was obtained from one of the Russian RNACD ‘old hands’ and not earned at all,

[MichaelHill]

It seems like we do not have any other pictures of him in uniform or other military association or information; however, I am still shaking the family tree hard trying to see if I can find any further information. One small piece of information I have found is that apparently he was injured during his service but I don't know how, when or where.

[MichaelHill]

One thing I was thinking about too is that earlier we were saying how he couldn't have been with the Russian armoured cars as it seems like from one of the posted articles that these left russia in Feb 1918. However, he signed up in Feb 1918, so could it be possible that at the point when he signed up the cars were still in action albeit maybe only for a few more days but at the time the office in London (president II) might not have known this yet? Looking back we might be tempted to say that he wouldn't have been with those cars because they stopped almost at the same time as he started but at the time the office might have believe that those cars in russia still have a long stretch of activity ahead of them. I don't know if this is possible or makes sense, just a thought... 

[horatio2]

Impossible. For a start he would have had to take passage from UK to North Russia to join a unit which was embarking for passage home. To what end? This scenario is a non-starter. His whereabouts when on the books of PRESIDENT II is not specifically stated but he was probably in recruit intake and training at the Crystal PalaceDepot.

[MichaelHill]

Just now, horatio2 said:

Impossible. For a start he would have had to take passage from UK to North Russia to join a unit which was embarking for passage home. To what end? This scenario is a non-starter. His whereabouts when on the books of PRESIDENT II is not specifically stated but he was probably in recruit intake and training at the Crystal PalaceDepot.

Yeah, you're right, sounds reasonable, it was just a thought...