MichaelHill Posted 31 January , 2022 Share Posted 31 January , 2022 My great-grandfather was awarded a St George Cross (4th Class I think) but we unfortunately know hardly anything else about him, which is a great shame. His name was Frederick Robert Hill, he was born in 1899 or 1900 in Kilrea, Londonderry, Northern Ireland. I think he joined the military in 1918 but can't be sure. The medal itself is lost but the ribbon remains (so I don't know his number, I think his rank might have been lieutenant). I have found two military records, which are his under the links below but that's it. I don't know where he was stationed or what he did and have not found any mention of him winning this award anywhere online. Does anyone here have an idea where I could maybe find out more information or even if there is an online resource, where I could find out for what he was awarded this medal? This would mean a lot to my father, who is himself an old man now too. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6851075 https://www.fold3.com/image/615122752 Thank you for any hints! Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 31 January , 2022 Admin Share Posted 31 January , 2022 Welcome to the forum. I’ve split this into a separate thread and moved it to the Sailors sub Forum to hopefully get you a bit more attention, and with any luck, answers. Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbem Posted 31 January , 2022 Share Posted 31 January , 2022 If you subscribe to Ancestry there is this https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/251951:60522?tid=&pid=&queryId=d793cbfa8f6e208afa5de945949da931&_phsrc=CUH16751&_phstart=successSource DetailSource Name: Frederick Robert Hill Gender: Male Birth Date: 8 Oct 1899 Birth Place: Kilrea Londonderry First Service Date: 12 Feb 1918 First Ship Served On: President II Last Service Date: 17 Feb 1918 Last Ship Served On: President II Service Number: F51159 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 31 January , 2022 Share Posted 31 January , 2022 23 minutes ago, MichaelHill said: St George Cross Cross of St George (4th Class) was an Imperial Russian order. Between 1914 and 1917 89,000 of them were awarded to other ranks and ratings, including men not from Russia, for acts of bravery. Here's one: https://fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/dept/coins/collection/watson/page399.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHill Posted 31 January , 2022 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2022 25 minutes ago, Michelle Young said: Welcome to the forum. I’ve split this into a separate thread and moved it to the Sailors sub Forum to hopefully get you a bit more attention, and with any luck, answers. Michelle Thank you very much Michelle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHill Posted 31 January , 2022 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2022 21 minutes ago, jonbem said: If you subscribe to Ancestry there is this https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/251951:60522?tid=&pid=&queryId=d793cbfa8f6e208afa5de945949da931&_phsrc=CUH16751&_phstart=successSource DetailSource Name: Frederick Robert Hill Gender: Male Birth Date: 8 Oct 1899 Birth Place: Kilrea Londonderry First Service Date: 12 Feb 1918 First Ship Served On: President II Last Service Date: 17 Feb 1918 Last Ship Served On: President II Service Number: F51159 Yes, I had found this reference too but am not sure what it is or what it means and couldn't find anything else after that except that after the war it seems he joined the Ulster Special Constabulary. Also, I only have the ribbon in the photo above, not the actual medal itself, so I guess it could also be a St George Medal rather than a cross but then the ribbon would hold the Roman numerals IV, which, even if they were missing, would have left some damage, hence my assumption that it was a St George Cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHill Posted 31 January , 2022 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2022 Here are the only two documents, which I found relating to his service, any hints on where he might have been, what he might have done would be so valuable to us, thank you everyone! Just now, MichaelHill said: Here are the only two documents, which I found relating to his service, any hints on where he might have been, what he might have done would be so valuable to us, thank you everyone! (TBH, I don't know what these documents are or how to interpret them, apologies, I hope they are meaningful / useful) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbem Posted 31 January , 2022 Share Posted 31 January , 2022 5 days seems a short time, unless we can find he was transferred in or out somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHill Posted 31 January , 2022 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2022 Just now, jonbem said: 5 days seems a short time, unless we can find he was transferred in or out somewhere. What do you mean by 5 days, where did you see this? My father is under the impression he served on the eastern front (which would make sense with regards to the St George Cross). I also just now searched online and found out that the "ship" President II, was in fact an administration building in London, so I guess he would have (initially?) been based there...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 31 January , 2022 Share Posted 31 January , 2022 It appears that he served onlysix days as a Petty Oficer Mechanic (POM) in the RNAS before being discharged to the Machine Gun Corps (MGC). His AIR 79 RAF record as 251159 (also 250806 - error) is blank because he never transferred to the RAF but the "Armoured Cars" note may be a clue to his MGC service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbem Posted 31 January , 2022 Share Posted 31 January , 2022 45 minutes ago, jonbem said: First Service Date: 12 Feb 1918 First Ship Served On: President II Last Service Date: 17 Feb 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHill Posted 31 January , 2022 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2022 4 minutes ago, horatio2 said: It appears that he served onlysix days as a Petty Oficer Mechanic (POM) in the RNAS before being discharged to the Machine Gun Corps (MGC). His AIR 79 RAF record as 251159 (also 250806 - error) is blank because he never transferred to the RAF but the "Armoured Cars" note may be a clue to his MGC service. 2 minutes ago, jonbem said: Wow, ok, first of all, thank you for helping me out with this and also: you are way better at reading this handwriting than I am, now I see what you mean.... So I gather he started at President II for a few day but then changed out of the RAF into Machine Gun Corps and / or the Armoured Cars corps or something like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 31 January , 2022 Share Posted 31 January , 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, MichaelHill said: So I gather he started at President II for a few day but then changed out of the RAF into Machine Gun Corps and / or the Armoured Cars corps or something like that? He was never in the RAF. His six days of naval service was in the Royal Naval Air Service. The RAF did not exist until All Fools' Day 1918. That short period in the RN explains why he is not listed in the Admiralty Medal Roll. Any medals would have come through the War Office for Army service. Edited 31 January , 2022 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHill Posted 31 January , 2022 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2022 6 minutes ago, horatio2 said: He was never in the RAF. His six days of naval service was in the Royal Naval Air Service. The RAF did not exist until All Fools' Day 1918. That short period in the RN explains why he is not listed in the Admiralty Medal Roll. Any medals would have come through the War Office for Army service. Thank you for clarifying! Sorry, I'm very new to all of this and don't really know what I'm talking about. Is there any lead in all of this as to where I could / should look next? Are there some War Office for Army service archives, where I would maybe find anything about him (I did search his name at the national archives but the above documents is all I could find)? Where would you look next? Thank you so much for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 31 January , 2022 Share Posted 31 January , 2022 (edited) Perhaps our Army/ MGC experts could find him :- Name: Hill, Frederick Robert RNAS Official Number:F51159 Place of Birth:Kilrea, Londonderry Date of Birth:08 October 1899 Edited 31 January , 2022 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talesofaseadog Posted 31 January , 2022 Share Posted 31 January , 2022 As background you might like to read this article about armoured cars in russia. https://snake43.webs.com/tsar-s-british-troops This is where many of those Russian medals came from and maybe he was one of these. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 31 January , 2022 Share Posted 31 January , 2022 (edited) He was certainly not a naval award. And, as the above link states "The final rear elements escaped via train to Murmansk and arrived back in the UK in February 1918." the month POM Hill joined the RNAS. More likely is service with the army in Dunsterforce in Persia and Turkey, Edited 31 January , 2022 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHill Posted 31 January , 2022 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2022 18 minutes ago, Talesofaseadog said: As background you might like to read this article about armoured cars in russia. https://snake43.webs.com/tsar-s-british-troops This is where many of those Russian medals came from and maybe he was one of these. Tony 2 minutes ago, horatio2 said: He was certainly not a naval award. And, as the above link states "The final rear elements escaped via train to Murmansk and arrived back in the UK in February 1918." the month POM Hill joined the RNAS. More likely is service with the army in Dunsterforce in Persia and Turkey, Thank you! That's a fascinating article but as Old Sweat just pointed out, the times wouldn't have worked out, this all happened before he joined, I'm still hoping I can find his name or number mentioned somewhere so that we might know where exactly he was. The fact that he might have worked with (armoured) cars would make sense though. Although he was a weaver originally, after the war he went to work with Goodyear rubber tires, so maybe his war experience had something to do with that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHill Posted 31 January , 2022 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2022 9 minutes ago, MichaelHill said: Thank you! That's a fascinating article but as Old Sweat just pointed out, the times wouldn't have worked out, this all happened before he joined, I'm still hoping I can find his name or number mentioned somewhere so that we might know where exactly he was. The fact that he might have worked with (armoured) cars would make sense though. Although he was a weaver originally, after the war he went to work with Goodyear rubber tires, so maybe his war experience had something to do with that... I just had another thought, would this be at all possible: What if he was indeed with these armoured cars in russia up until around feb 1918 and the documents are from afterwards, e.g. maybe from when he returned? Maybe the comment "armoured cars" refers to where he'd come from? Could this be the case or is this not possible as it would have been noted on these documents? Although anything else couldn't have been much earlier as he was born around 1900 so still very young at that time. This is tricky to find out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 31 January , 2022 Share Posted 31 January , 2022 This scenario is most unlikely. He only reached his 18th birthday in October 1917. Previous service of any kind would be noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHill Posted 31 January , 2022 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2022 Just now, horatio2 said: This scenario is most unlikely. He only reached his 18th birthday in October 1917. Previous service of any kind would be noted. Ok, thank you, so then I guess I will keep searching as to where he might have gone with the "Armoured Cars" / MGC, I hope I can find something but it seems difficult. Again thank you to everyone for helping! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHill Posted 31 January , 2022 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2022 May I ask if anyone might have any idea / suggestion what the circled texts refer to? Could there be any clues in there...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 31 January , 2022 Share Posted 31 January , 2022 (edited) His enlistment was for the duration of HOSTILITIES List and No. are his entries in the HMS PRESIDENT II Ship's Book = his Pay No, MGC = Discharged to Machine Gun Corps. His Character (C) (= Conduct) was assessed as Very Good (VG) and no Ability (A) assessment for his six days in the RNAS. Trace written 10/2/19 = note of an administrative trace on his service. a year later. [Of no importance} Edited 31 January , 2022 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHill Posted 31 January , 2022 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2022 Wow, how you guys know all this stuff is really cool, thank you! I hope maybe someone on this forum can still come up with an idea where I might find a lead as to where he went after this, fingers crossed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHill Posted 31 January , 2022 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2022 3 minutes ago, MichaelHill said: Wow, how you guys know all this stuff is really cool, thank you! I hope maybe someone on this forum can still come up with an idea where I might find a lead as to where he went after this, fingers crossed... BTW, I've added a picture of him in 1922, I just thought it might be nice to see what he looked like as we're searching for his history... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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