Imperial German S 1898 aA Sawback ~ F.P.3.33. regimental........? ? ?

[trajan]

2 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

... Even not clear here on 100% its a Schutztruppe piece the FP 3.33, is evident by period pictures,listings of armory and by gun reports from Kar98k forum, the Gew98 was used in majority so the KS98 and S98 bayonets were used intensively by these units, evidently the R.Williams piece 2F.R.E4.179 could be positively confirm as only K.Sch.piece as other explanation was not found prior to this time, so when 2 or more pieces exist, as there is in link other scabbard of same unit but 1.Company, is evident the armorer of 2.FR intensively stamped the equipment of his units. Even not 100% by regulation of 1897 manual as this was a short living unit.

One of the things I drew attention to at a very early stage in this thread was the following statement in Der Feldzug gegen die Hereros the official report by the Preußen Großer Generalstab Berlin, 1906, p. 13:  Die Bewaffnung der Schutztruppe [in 1904] bestand in dem Gewehr 88 und dem Jnfanterieseilengewehr 71/84. 

I have searched that volume extensively and the companion volume, Der Hottentottenkrieg, Preußen Großer Generalstab Berlin, 1907, which also menions Gew.88 (and Gew.71), but neither mention the use of the Gew.98. I have not been able to find a secure, i.e., official or semi-official, record of when supplies of the Gew. 98 reached DSWA.

As I have detailed in at least two earlier posts, the evidence suggests that the Gew.98 did not appear in DSWA until after 1907 or so, although several writers have latched onto 1903-1904 for its arrival.

I am not saying the Gew 98 doesn't appear earlier than that in Schutztruppe use. I am just saying that the evidence suggests the rifle was not sent to DSWA until all front-line units had been supplied with the weapon, so 1906/1907 at the earliest, and stressing that the Prussian General Staff state that in 1904 the Schutztruppe were armed Gew.88 and S.71/84.     

The Roy Williams piece is an oddity, I admit, as are like-marked pieces. There are some unit marks that start 'F.R.', as, e.g., 'F.R.39', which is almost certainly for the Füsilier-Regiment General Ludendorff (Niederrheinisches) Nr. 39 and of course the Garde Fusilier-regiment used 'G.F.R.'

By the way, what I do find odd is that there are some 300-500 known examples of KS marked kS 98, but I have only recorded two KS marked Gew.98. Mind you, I have not updated my listings of unit marks since about 2017 so I may have missed one or two.  

Julian

[AndyBsk]

Problem is i dont known when was any of this marking stamped, maybe later, i am not focused on history of Schutztruppe, anyway on the link to Kar98k forum are reported real rifles as follows:

"Kar98/ Kar98A/Kar98a of the Schutztruppe:
1901/Erfurt/2043/F.T.A. 50 (Note: This carbine is marked Kav. Kar 98 on the side rail.)
1901/Erfurt/1645/F.P.3.72 (Fuhrpark-Kolonne Nr,3, Waffe Nr.72), indicates this carbine could have seen service with the Kaiserliche Schutztruppe in South-West Africa against the Hereros and Hottentotten,when they rebelled against the German Colonial Troops. First pattern of carbine.
1912/Danzig/?/SCH.D.O.A.1080 "The Kar98a became the standard issue service rifle in the DOA by 1912. NCOs were first to get it. Then started the re-equipment of Askaris with it, which was still in progress by 1914. Askaris in 5 companies (1., 4., 8., 10. and 13. FK) were equipped with it by start of war."
1912/Danzig/3933/Sch.D.O.A.487
1912/Erfurt/2470/Sch.K.835
Colonial Gewehr 1898 used by the Kaiserliche Schutztruppe:
1899/WMO/6735/K.S.10228.S (few details-unknown if stock is original to the receiver)
Spandau 1900
1900/Spandau/6660c/K.S.2706 .S (This rifle is also marked. L.P.638)
1900/Spandau/9450c/K.S.1623.S in a SA collection. (UDF marked)
1900/Spandau/7478b/K.S. (KCN report - SA collection, stated "KS")
1900/Spandau/4977c/K.S.9043.S This rifle is also marked 2.F.R.7.81
1900/Spandau/7467i /K.S.9043 JN
1900/Spandau/?/K.S.10279
1900/Spandau/?/K.S.11194(This rifle is also marked. L.P.424)
1900/Spandau/148d/K.S. 2333. S This rifle is past of the T. Dawes collection in South Africa.
1900/Spandau/5750c/K.S.9671
1900/Spandau/6507/K.S.10784 (Part of MWC collection)
1900/Spandau/3534c/K.S. 190. S
1900/Spandau/9037c/K.S. 2030. S
1900/Spandau/8559c/K.S.10834. (In Private collection in Germany)
Spandau 1901
1901/Spandau/?/K.S.2748
1901/Spandau/6958/K.S.4061.S (UDF marked)
1901/Spandau/6693/K.S.3904.S (In Private collection in Germany) (WR 35630 on side of the receiver stands for weapons register. Each firearm in SA is registered but if there is a duplication then a WR number is given for that rifle.)
1901/Spandau/5881A/K.S.2869.S
1901/Spandau/5115/K.S.1187.S (this rifle has a South African Union Defence Force or UDF marked. Mark is diamond in U = sold out of service on the receiver.) 
1901/Spandau/4839/K.S.1378.S "Underneath the bolt handle in the bolt cut out there is a "N within D"
1901/Spandau/7028/K.S.1138
1901/Spandau/168/K.S.9788.S (eGun pictures poor)
1901/Spandau/2346/ K.S.11260
1901/Spandau/2692/K.S.792.S
1901/Spandau /7372/K.S.4349.S (SA collection)
1901/Spandau/5117a /K.S. 2539.S (report - SA collection)
1901/Spandau/?/K.S.2177.S (serial unknown)
Erfurt 1902
1902/Erfurt/1133/K.S.4540 (UDF marked)
1902/Erfurt/9925e/K.S.9881
Erfurt 1903
1903/Erfurt/?/K.S. 5072.S (UDF marked)
1903/Erfurt/1144f/K.S. 5682. S
Kar98/ Kar98A/Kar98a of the Landespolizei and Polizeitruppe:
1904/Erfurt/4540/K.G.P.46.
(note: K.G.P. stands for Kaiserliches Gouvernement Polizei and seem to be used in 1905-07.) Second pattern of carbine.
1904/Erfurt/6800/ Urispolizei Behörde Luderitzbucht No.258 on the butt plate. Unit mark is "District Police Property" Very common before the formation of the Landespolizei in 1907. Also there is L 258 above the Erfurt on the crest.
Second pattern of carbin
1904/Erfurt/2137/F.P.1.32 (note: F.P.1.32 Fuhrpark-Kolonne Nr.1 waffe Nr. 32 (Second pattern of carbine.)
1904/Erfurt/6913/K.G.P.47. Second pattern of carbine.
1904/Erfurt/7141/K.G.P.202. Second pattern of carbine.
1904/Erfurt/4411/K.G.P. 150
1904/Erfurt/5101/K.G.P. 139 Kaiserliches Gouvernement Polizei and seem to be used in 1905-07. (Ortspolitzie Windhuk & Ortspolitzie Bethanien.) Second pattern of carbine. 1904/Erfurt/5101/K.G.P. 139 Kaiserliches Gouvernement Polizei and seem to be used in 1905-07. (Ortspolitzie Windhuk & Ortspolitzie Bethanien.) Second pattern of carbine. This carbine is past of the T. Dawes collection in South Africa.
1905/Erfurt/8352/5.F.P.4.51 (note: 5.F.P.4.51 Fuhrpark-Kolonne Nr.4 waffe Nr. 51 (Second pattern of carbine.)

So from what i see there are identical stamps on some of the early type Karbines 98 for FP marking same as one of them is doubble marked KS and FP!!

Same as is clear the major stamp on rifles and bayonets was a inventory stamp in form of KS number, which could be changed in the structure, same as majority of Gew98 rifles probably were equiped with KS98 bayonets, anyway they existed small number of S98 bayonets mostly used by NCOs and one of the armorer stamped some of the rifles inside of 2FR unit and FP 5, 3 and similar.

From period photo even undated the Kamelreiter Patrouille has a long Gew98 rifle with S98 bayonet, certainly not proper for Cavalry, as Gew.98 were not used or destined for technical units or as cavalry rifle, from this could be sayed the Field units of Schutztruppe used equipment certainly not as normal german army but were used as in field war conditions. Not correctly per manuals.

Fusilier Regiment was never raised as nr.1 or 2. the first one in listing is 33.

-one of the earlier manuals speaks clear that F. could denote Feld or Field, same as P could be Proviant ? Unit wenn i read it corectly,so the stamping could be explained this way and would be corect stamped,question would be size of letter F as normally letters was 4.2mm height.

Edited 11 January , 2022 by AndyBsk

[shippingsteel]

Thanks for posting that listing of weapons again for us Andy. Some of those markings are very telling, especially the 1900 Gew98 with BOTH the FR stamping together with the later KS serials. I think any reasonable person would conclude that the Schutztruppe had the Gew98 in time for the DSWA campaigns and they were marked to the Feld-Regiments, etc. 

And now that we have been able to confirm the organisational structure of the Proviant Kolonne Abteilungs it is amazing how every single one of the FP markings can be explained by reference to that structure.

And likewise the weapons the FP markings are found on can ALL be placed in the hands of the Schutztruppen during that same period, either by examining the photographic evidence, or looking at examples that have been documented in private collections and in museums.

See below a snapshot from the German Colonial Uniforms page again, which shows the weapons of the Schutztruppe in the Swakopmund Museum in Namibia. Of interest at the bottom is an example of the very scarce Kar98, of the same type as one that is also marked with the F.P.3 stamp in another Sth.African collection.  

http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk/militaria/rifles.htm

So I believe the evidence is extremely strong that the FP markings belong to the Schutztruppe in the period of the campaigns in DSWA. That is my "somewhat educated" opinion and I have satisfied myself to that extent by doing the research. But all this means nothing of course - it is JUST a forum.! 

Cheers, SS 

[GreyC]

Hi,

if it is of any interest here is a snippet of the diary of then Hauptmann (later Major) Brentano-Bernada who was sent to Africa as part of the reinforcements on board transport FELDMARSCHALL, the 6th steamer to reach Africa for that purpose on the 17th April 1904 (Swakopmund). He writes (among other things, that rifle-training started on board the ship and they used Gewehr 98 and Munition 98, both new to him and the men under his command:

2.30 pm. Instructions on gun and ammunition M98 and aiming practice....All guns are still stacked in boxes with the exception of 15 guns which during the whole voyage of the transport are used for practice and other duties. So these guns were passed from company to company. This afternoon 12 guns were used by the cavalrymen practising the firing position while the other three were used for other practise.

The diary is now in posession of a friend who was so kind to supply the information to us.

 

 

Edited 11 January , 2022 by GreyC

[shippingsteel]

10 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

"Kar98/ Kar98A/Kar98a of the Schutztruppe:
1901/Erfurt/2043/F.T.A. 50 (Note: This carbine is marked Kav. Kar 98 on the side rail.)
1901/Erfurt/1645/F.P.3.72 (Fuhrpark-Kolonne Nr,3, Waffe Nr.72), indicates this carbine could have seen service with the Kaiserliche Schutztruppe in South-West Africa 

Thank you for posting that GreyC, there is certainly no doubt that they had the Gew98 and the S98 bayonet to attach. 

And they also had the Kar98 carbine with a number of examples coming up with the FP markings, as we see in the listing posted by Andy above.

Not only that, but at the top of the list the F.T.A.50 Kav.Kar.98 example immediately jumps out at me as yet another marking attributable to the Schutztruppe. Where you find one you usually find more.!

So the marking is for the Feld-Telegraphen-Abteilung, Waffe Nr.50 which can be referenced to both the organisation charts and the troopship listing in the books (see illustration above)

Cheers, SS 

[AndyBsk]

Grey C added real sutterlin font  text here.

Yes the FTA should be correct for that unit.

As mentioned already major FP marking were observed on carbines which would be correct for Fuhrpark or Cavalry units more as long rifles Gew98 for mounted units, even by the K.Sch. were not so streght on similar regulations.

In forum is too list of police colonial units of rifles, even undated and locations of South Africa with majority listed 98S rifles, which means a refurbished rifles of Gew98 for spitzround in period 1904/5, so its real that rifles previously used by Garde as early period 1900 were confirmed, brought back to Divisional armories or Armory,to change the sights and chamber area for Spitz round and send the rifles to units, that needed arms with new cartridge, so for this is also significant that many of the FR and FP rifles and here the presented bayonet and R.Williams piece are S98aAS made in 99/00 period. Personally believe that here the crossguard was flatened by removing older unit stamp.

As mentioned before, the most important are the rifles not bayonets, and there are well made studies by C.Brown and others based on real specimens.

1900/Spandau/4977c/K.S.9043.S This rifle is also marked 2.F.R.7.81, Roy Williams piece 00 dated S98aAS in same basic unit 2.F.R.E.4.179, and different scabbard with 2.F.R.1.150 presented here by SS in full copy some answer before

 

Edited 12 January , 2022 by AndyBsk

[AndyBsk]

As the site is interesting on various bayonets and the other colonies areas DOA and K mainly with older type of bayonets S71 and S71/84 used, possible as DWA was a war area in post 1905 , units were equiped with newest arming also Gew98, here could be too one of the explanation as the bayonet is 1901 production S98aA. S.F.4 could be easy declared as Sanitats Fuhrpark weapon nr.4 as listed in the troops of South area. I believe its more real as the Samoan location. Note the F is too oversized as on other similar bayonets.

Edited 12 January , 2022 by AndyBsk

[trajan]

13 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Problem is i dont known when was any of this marking stamped, maybe later, i am not focused on history of Schutztruppe, anyway on the link to Kar98k forum are reported real rifles as follows:

... 
1912/Danzig/?/SCH.D.O.A.1080 "The Kar98a became the standard issue service rifle in the DOA by 1912. NCOs were first to get it. Then started the re-equipment of Askaris with it, which was still in progress by 1914. Askaris in 5 companies (1., 4., 8., 10. and 13. FK) were equipped with it by start of war."

So from what i see there are identical stamps on some of the early type Karbines 98 for FP marking same as one of them is doubble marked KS and FP!!

Same as is clear the major stamp on rifles and bayonets was a inventory stamp in form of KS number, which could be changed in the structure, same as majority of Gew98 rifles probably were equiped with KS98 bayonets, anyway they existed small number of S98 bayonets mostly used by NCOs and one of the armorer stamped some of the rifles inside of 2FR unit and FP 5, 3 and similar.

From period photo even undated the Kamelreiter Patrouille has a long Gew98 rifle with S98 bayonet, certainly not proper for Cavalry, as Gew.98 were not used or destined for technical units or as cavalry rifle, from this could be sayed the Field units of Schutztruppe used equipment certainly not as normal german army but were used as in field war conditions. Not correctly per manuals.

Wow, what a way to start a morning with all this information coming in! Unfortunately duty calls (i.e., things to do today for those who pay me), so it will take a while to look all these new posts over and respond to each new piece of information. 

AndyB, I am amazed at how many KS etc.DSWA markings you have listed there! My unit markings list - which numbers close to 7,000, is mainly bayonet-focussed and has not been updated since 2017-2019, so no surprise really that I have missed all these rifles and carbines. We are still a long way off, though, from the 300+ known examples of kS98 marked to the Schutztruppe. 

The statement "The Kar98a became the standard issue service rifle in the DOA by 1912...." fits nicely with the intention of the Kriegsministerium, to equip all front-line units with Gew.98 before 1907, and then to supply these to 'secondary' units from 1912. This pattern is 'proved' to some extent by the unit markings on S.98 and I think it is reasonable to assume that the same directive applied to carbines, i.e., they started to be supplied in 1912 - and it was probably also that year that the Gew.88 issued to the Schutzrtruppe began to be replaced with the Gew.98. Don't ever forget the massive shortage of Gew.98 rifles at the start of WW1 with some front-line units having their Gew. 98 taken away to train reserve, etc., units, and being issued with Gew.88 instead - or even Russian rifles! There is excellent contemporary documentation regarding this. 

So, what IS 'F.P.'? Needs some extra thought!

The evidence of the Schutztruppe kS 98 markings suggested to Jackson that these arrived at two separate armourer depots in a minimum of two consignments in probably 1910 and 1911 and serialled in succession after they were unpacked. This is why some very early kS98's have higher serial numbers than later one s- e.g., there is a 1906 example marked 'K.S.1750' and a 1910 example marked 'K.S.1073'.  Perhaps the type 98 rifles and carbines were also delivered this way and likewise serialled in succession as they were unpacked by different armourers in a similar way?

The Camel troops were formed in 1908, no earlier. Camels were probably used before that date, but a specific Kamelreiter unit did not apear until 1908.

Once again, though, Andy, many thanks! It is amazing what we can achieve together when sharing information instead of trying to point-score!Julian 

[AndyBsk]

offcoarse there are many information to study, the reported Kar98a carbines since 1912 standard  - was certainly wrongly declared as Kar98a are in that case Kar98AZ as approved design for cavalry and special units since 1908. The reported early Kav.Carbines were made in period 1901-05 and the range is max 3000 of production for cavalry type and 5000 for Kar98a type which is pictured in SA museum Namibia with bayonet attachement.

Since 1908 were made only the longer Kar98AZ.

Already posted here by SS.

Edited 12 January , 2022 by AndyBsk

[shippingsteel]

On 31/12/2021 at 18:44, bert.f said:

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/documented-firearms-of-the-schutztruppe-and-other-colonial-forces.1206706/

The full listing in the Gunboards thread that Bert posted back in Page 1 ...

[AndyBsk]

By dating should be looked to structure of units of DSWA when were reorganised to other structure,(some people have here historical material) as when these units were reported 1905, i dont known they were still in use in 1912?? to sample, when dissbanded the 2FR to sample so the unit stamp based on Regiments should be earlier made as the inventory KS serials, same as the pieces KS98 from 1911 or 1913 could be replacements with damaged inventory pieces added post arriving in Africa.

The Gunboard team is probably the same as on Kar98k forum, so the results are similar.

Edited 12 January , 2022 by AndyBsk

[bert.f]

Hello,

The list was published ( GB and K98 forum) by the same user,

Edited 12 January , 2022 by bert.f

[trajan]

15 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Thanks for posting that listing of weapons again for us Andy. Some of those markings are very telling, especially the 1900 Gew98 with BOTH the FR stamping together with the later KS serials. I think any reasonable person would conclude that the Schutztruppe had the Gew98 in time for the DSWA campaigns and they were marked to the Feld-Regiments, etc. 

And now that we have been able to confirm the organisational structure of the Proviant Kolonne Abteilungs it is amazing how every single one of the FP markings can be explained by reference to that structure.

And likewise the weapons the FP markings are found on can ALL be placed in the hands of the Schutztruppen during that same period, either by examining the photographic evidence, or looking at examples that have been documented in private collections and in museums.

So I believe the evidence is extremely strong that the FP markings belong to the Schutztruppe in the period of the campaigns in DSWA. That is my "somewhat educated" opinion and I have satisfied myself to that extent by doing the research. But all this means nothing of course - it is JUST a forum.! 

Working my way though... Yes, SS, it is indeed a 'forum' and as such, ad hominem remarks have no place in the discussion.

OK, there are still some problems to my mind in accepting that the type 98 firarms were in general use in DSWA in time for the 1904+ campaigns. In particular, it strikes me that the serial numbering pattern on these is somewhat similar to that as in the kS 98 bayonets - i.e., the serial numbers are not in sequence with the weapon manufacturing dates.

For example, the Spandau manufacturing year 1900: the earliest rifle serial number is 6507, and the latest is 7467i. The 'K.S.' serial number on the earliest, the 6507, is 'K.S.10784', and that on the latest, 7467, is 'K.S.9043'. One reasonable and certainly the simplest explanation for this numbering sequence, with the older rifle receiving the lower number, is that the rifles arrived as a 'job lot', and serialled as they were unpacked. In other words, they did not come together as a 'bulk purchase' from the factory. 

This suggests to me that the rifles represent one or more bulk shipments of Gew.98 that had been returned to depot stores (for refurbishment?) or a centrral armoury after service with other units, and were then boxed together, and sent to DSWA where they were unpacked and serial numbered as they came out the boxes.  Such a scenario is not impossible: the Schutztruppe were an odd formation, not army, not police, and under the Colonial Office which had to get its stores from wherever!

But when might this have happened? Well, we go back to the statement in the contemporary accounts of the Gew.88 being the rifle in use at the start of the 1904 campaign, and this evidently remained the standard rifle until replaced by the Gew 98 and Kar 98.  Jackson, without giving a sources says that the Schutztruppe were re-armed with the Gew.98 in 1903. I have seen that year or 1904 mentioned elsewhere for the delivery of the Gew.98 to DSWA but again without a source being given.

As far as I am aware the earliest securely dated or dateable photographic evidence of a Gew.98 in DSWA is that of the group of Kamelreiter shown in an earlier post. But the evidence is that this unit did not exist before 1908, so that photograph is 1908 or later. (If I am incorrect on thinking this to be the earliest securely dated or dateable photograph of a Gew.98 I have no doubt that SS will rush to correct me!).

So we come back to a point I have stressed before. The priority of the Kriegsministerium with regard to the Gew.98 was to first arm front-line units in a process that was to be completed by 1907, and there is some evidence to show this was indeed the case. Then came the turn of the secondary units. In other words, there is a hint in the way the KS rifles were serial-marked in a sequence that does not match the date of manufacture that they came as a 'job-lot', and were not issued for general service with the Schutztruppe until 1907+.    

No doubt somebody will object or find a fault in my reasoning. So be it. I'll finish for now as I still haven't looked at any of the posts that came in after this one! 

Trajan

[trajan]

17 hours ago, GreyC said:

 

2.30 pm. Instructions on gun and ammunition M98 and aiming practice....All guns are still stacked in boxes with the exception of 15 guns which during the whole voyage of the transport are used for practice and other duties. So these guns were passed from company to company. This afternoon 12 guns were used by the cavalrymen practising the firing position while the other three were used for other practise.

The diary is now in posession of a friend who was so kind to supply the information to us.

Hi GreyC,

Now that IS interesting! So, out goes the bathwater of my argument about when the Gew.98 arrived in DSWA - but not the baby... What I mean by that is at the start of the 1904 campaign the Schutztruppe was unoformly armed with the Gew.88 but then one or more shipments of Gew.98's arrived in 1904 (and persumably subsequently) with reinforcements. There is an obvious parallel here with the Ostasiatische korps. The OKorps was sent out with the latest model rifle and bayonet for, in effect, field trials and training, as they were a de facto front-line unit. I can imagine something similar happening when it was decided to reinforce the existing Schutztruppe.

The problem with the non sequential serial numbering of the Gew,98 rifles by date and number remains, though. Perhaps the serial numbering started when weapons were returned to the armouries at the conclusion of the Hottentot campaign? Or later, in 1910/1911, which is what Jackson suggests for the bayonets?

What is clear is that in 1908 or so, the Schutztruppe was reduced from a total of around 20,000 men as 'veterans' were sent home, leaving a unit with only about 4000 or so by 1914. A great many of the firearms used in the campaign were clearly left behind - apparently some 8,000 firearms were in depot storage and destroyed in 1915 before the Schutztruppe surrendered.  Perhaps these firearms were numbered as they went into storage? 

Julian

[trajan]

11 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Thank you for posting that GreyC, there is certainly no doubt that they had the Gew98 and the S98 bayonet to attach. 

... the marking is for the Feld-Telegraphen-Abteilung, Waffe Nr.50

No prolems there.

8 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

... In forum is too list of police colonial units of rifles, even undated and locations of South Africa with majority listed 98S rifles, which means a refurbished rifles of Gew98 for spitzround in period 1904/5, so its real that rifles previously used by Garde as early period 1900 were confirmed, brought back to Divisional armories or Armory,to change the sights and chamber area for Spitz round and send the rifles to units, that needed arms with new cartridge, so for this is also significant that many of the FR and FP rifles and here the presented bayonet and R.Williams piece are S98aAS made in 99/00 period. Personally believe that here the crossguard was flatened by removing older unit stamp.

That agrees with my comment above. that the serial numbers indicate one or more bulk arrivals of 'second-hand' Gew.98 serialled as and when when they went they arrived. 

[AndyBsk]

Interestingly in Goetz book is other early rifle Gew98 marked to 2.F.R.11.21 , of which, the diagram says were under command of Anders in section South. So when we assume the major period of activity was 1905-1907, evidently the unit of 2. Feld Regiment could be stamped only in that period not later, and the KS inventory numbers were added much later as some are clearly on 1911-13 dated KS98 bayonets.

What says Goetz about Gew.98  production the earliest production 1899/00 were equiped Marine, Ost Asiatisches Korps and Garde, that correspond fully with marking found on real samples, in 1901 following first 3. army corps I-III, and etc  following prior 1907 when all combat units should be equiped with 98 system.

As DSWA were in war period 1904 or  later, is clear there were major equipment for this part a Gew98 system. That is not that case of DOA, Kamerun Togo and other Schutzgebiete about speaks the :Die Bewaffnung der Schutztruppe [in 1904] bestand in dem Gewehr 88 und dem Jnfanterieseitengewehr 71/84. 

This could be real mainly for areas where were not any combat strikes and to 1904, but not real for period of post 1904 and post and DSWA.

The police weapon listings clearly speaks for 98 S in majority and minor pieces of G88.

Clearly declared by listing of various early Carbines98 produced in Erfurt 1901-1904 and FP units on them that this could be done only by maximum rising of these units in war period, not later when the war stopped and the units were shrunked down. Same as the majority of Gew98 rifles are from 1899-1901 period.

We could only thank the waffenmeister of South area that he stamped the various guns and bayonets as prior this time i never saw a 1.F.R. stamp. or other unit from North area, same as would be interesting to known what the marking KS xxxx S means?

https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/herero-revolt-1904-1907

They speaks on various places on max. of 20000 soldier germans strenght ended in late 1907.

Edited 12 January , 2022 by AndyBsk

[shippingsteel]

On 12/01/2022 at 08:14, GreyC said:

Hi, if it is of any interest here is a snippet of the diary of then Hauptmann (later Major) Brentano-Bernada who was sent to Africa as part of the reinforcements on board transport FELDMARSCHALL, the 6th steamer to reach Africa for that purpose on the 17th April 1904 (Swakopmund). He writes (among other things, that rifle-training started on board the ship and they used Gewehr 98 and Munition 98, both new to him and the men under his command:

In posting this interesting piece from the diary regarding the issue of the Gew98 rifle onboard, GreyC may have inadvertently solved a long-standing mystery that has been puzzling Postcard collectors and Schutztruppe enthusiasts alike for many years.!

You see immediately before the departure of the Schutztruppe contingents to DSWA it appears that many posed for the obligatory photos to loved ones, in the German studios. Many of these images were taken at the same location sharing the same studio backdrop that mentions the forthcoming trip to Windhoek.

http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/germancolonialuniforms/militaria/rifles.htm

The mystery is why many of the troops appear to have "ill fitting" bayonets fixed on their rifles.! So the photos show them with their S98 bayonets loosely attached to the WRONG rifles ... in this case the Gew88 which must have been used as a studio prop, as the two items don't usually go together.!

So I believe the solving of the puzzle simply comes down to them being issued uniform and kit (including S98 bayonet and scabbard) but NO rifle. Thanks to GreyC we now know that they were issued with the Gew98 rifles onboard and when they arrived in DSWA, which now explains the very odd photos.

Cheers, SS 

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/25/6a/46/256a460c52994d7647ab81f277fb5131--military-photos-military-men.jpg

Edited 13 January , 2022 by shippingsteel

[trajan]

13 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

would be interesting to known what the marking KS xxxx S means?

I had assumed this meant a rifle converted to fire Spitzer cartridges, in which case the chamber / receiver was marked with an 'S'. Rifles are NOT my field, but I seem to recall that the first Gew.98 did not use these bullets. I don't have any rifle books at home so cannot check. As is usual, I am more than happy to be corrected!

Julian

[AndyBsk]

The S on suffix of KS means probably South or different explanation, S on reciever or barell was marked for Spitz round after change the rifles to new cartridge post 1903/4. New rifles were made wout S added on receiver. In the link they speak about Schutztruppe modification of the Gew98, possible with turned down bolt handle , dont speak about S conversion. with 200m sight would be this a old cartridge rifle?

http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/germancolonialuniforms/militaria/rifles.htm#Mauser_Schutztruppen-Gewehr_1898_(Gew98S)

Edited 13 January , 2022 by AndyBsk

[shippingsteel]

Is this another Schutztruppe marking from the DSWA campaign.? I am assuming that it is a script letter S.?

If so then it should be a Feld-Signal-Abteilung mark. See illustration from the organisation chart below.

This photo from an interesting old thread linked here regarding the bayonets of DSWA. 

https://gmic.co.uk/topic/50503-dswa-bayonets/page/2/

Cheers, SS 

Edited 13 January , 2022 by shippingsteel

[trajan]

7 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

In posting this interesting piece from the diary regarding the issue of the Gew98 rifle onboard, GreyC may have inadvertently solved a long-standing mystery that has been puzzling Postcard collectors and Schutztruppe enthusiasts alike for many years.! ... The mystery is why many of the troops appear to have "ill fitting" bayonets fixed on their rifles.! So the photos show them with their S98 bayonets loosely attached to the WRONG rifles ... in this case the Gew88 which must have been used as a studio prop, as the two items don't usually go together.!

I had momentarily wondered about that fact - the wrong bayonets on the wrong rifles. There is even one showing a man with - IIRC - a Jagerbusche with a non-German bayonet attached. Unfortuanetly I can't track it now as I am packing for an early morning flight.

The one you show in the post, by the way, is the first of about 5 or so I have seen that does NOT have the 'Wiedersehen' noticeboard to one side of the subject as seen in the link you provided. Or has it been cropped out? Incidentally, the backgrounds in these posed ones do vary somewhat - one I have see even has palm trees on it...

Trajan

Edited 13 January , 2022 by trajan

[trajan]

4 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

The S on suffix of KS means probably South or different explanation, S on reciever or barell was marked for Spitz round after change the rifles to new cartridge post 1903/4.

Yes, but all the rifles you list above with an 'S' at the end of the serial are 1903 or earlier. That's why I assumed these were converts to the new round after its introduction, which I think was in 1904?

Julian

[trajan]

3 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Is this another Schutztruppe marking from the DSWA campaign.? I am assuming that it is a script letter S.?  If so then it should be a Feld-Signal-Abteilung mark. See illustration from the organisation chart below. 

I don't think it is an S, but that's just my opinion. But in any case 0 without being able to check all the regulations as I am in a rush - I am pretty certain that the 'S' used for a (Feld-)Signal Abteilung was like that for a Sanitats-Abteilung , a normal capital 'S' not a script (italic) one.

Trajan 

[AndyBsk]

I dont known about the S as suffix, as there exist rifles with this S and some wout it, so it could be marking for denoting something else, why stamped on butt when it was on receiver and barell? But i dont have more info, only that since late 1904 Goetz speaks were produced rifles for new round wout S marking.

The SS pictured piece is a S98/02?  there is older number under F, the scabbard is 3. Pioneer? the next letter is S written by hand i believe. There is Sanitaets abteilung nr.2 in the listing? but this should be as normal S.

I see there Scheinwerfer Abteilung nr.2 , weapon nr. could be one of the possibilities when found in South Africa, the previous stamp was 3.Pionier Battalion 5.company probably. Question remains its of that colonial unit? 

Edited 13 January , 2022 by AndyBsk

[bert.f]

Hello,SS

S98/02- F.T.A.2- Feld -Telegraphen-Abteilung nr2