Imperial German S 1898 aA Sawback ~ F.P.3.33. regimental........? ? ?

[trajan]

SS, in case you didn't know this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t35RRj82acs

It's a 1902-made Gew.98 with a KS disc. You mention the one in Ball's Mauser book. "KS marked Gew98 rifle which has had its butt disc reused by the Colonial authorities." Is this the same one? What date is that rifle in the book? What is the full reading of the unit disc? Just 'FK'? 

Now, before jumping up to argue that this rifle in the video is "Proof the Schutztruppe had Gew.98 by 1902!", remember that the Kriegsministerium official policy was to re-arm all frontline (i.e., European) units with the Gew.98 by 1907, although the Ostasiatische Korps were supplied with them basically for trials use in 1900, the VI Armee Korps being one of the last to be supplied with these rifles probably in 1906/1907. Then, i.e., 1907 onwards, these rifles began to be made for and distributed to Reserve and Landwehr units. It was in just such a phase of redistribution that a 1902 made rifle could end up in Africa. Either way, without any other evidence, I would certainly not want to be the subaltern who challenged the authority of the General Staff on what weapons were used by the Schutztruppe in 1904-1905!

Trajan

PS: Yes, I know, I really need to check three other important recent books on the matter!

[shippingsteel]

Doesn't seem to be much mystery involved, the photographic evidence is fairly substantial. Standard DSWA Schutztruppen Mounted Infantry turnout, armed with Gew98 rifle, attaching the SG.98 bayonet and also correct SG.98 scabbard on belt. 

Not to say they didn't have other older rifles including the Gew88 and Kar98 carbines, but to say they DID NOT have the Gew98 appears to be incorrect. 

Cheers, SS 

https://pin.it/ovridCj

Edited 3 January , 2022 by shippingsteel

[shippingsteel]

29 minutes ago, trajan said:

SS, in case you didn't know this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t35RRj82acs

It's a 1902-made Gew.98 with a KS disc. You mention the one in Ball's Mauser book. "KS marked Gew98 rifle which has had its butt disc reused by the Colonial authorities." Is this the same one? What date is that rifle in the book? What is the full reading of the unit disc? Just 'FK'? 

Interesting video but different rifle to the one I mentioned, same style and same Colonial variant, and same KS marked on the butt disc. Don't know it's date of manufacture. And apparently it was previously stamped with the FK only.

Cheers, SS 

[trajan]

Well, true to say that according to https://surplused.com/index.php/2020/05/24/ks-gewehr-1898/ there is a run of Gew.98's of 1901 or so vintage with 'KS' discs... 

Yet, if the stated official priority of the Kriegsministerium was to make front-line units first-come in the supply of Gew.98 then it seems rather strange that a colonial unit would receive them as new that early?  Simultaeously, for example, it seems, with the VIII AK stationed on the border with France?  We really need some internally dated photographs from 1904/1905 or earlier...

Incidentally, Jackson makes the point that the Ks.98's seem to have arrived in boxes of mixed lots of differing manufacture dates. 

[GreyC]

2 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

which shows a Kamel-reiter patrol, the weapon is undeniably a Gew98.!

Hi,

can somebody explain to me (a layman in things like Karabiner 98) the difference between a Kavallerie-Karabiner 98 an a normal one? How did it look different?

Thank you!

@ Julian: All the best to you and your familiy, too!

Edited 3 January , 2022 by GreyC

[trajan]

24 minutes ago, GreyC said:

...can somebody explain to me (a layman in things like Karabiner 98) the difference between a Kavallerie-Karabiner 98 an a normal one? How did it look different?

At its most basic a matter of length and a different muzzle form. SS will have the literature, and probably the photographs, but the carbine was some 15 cm shorter, if I recall correctly, and the original Kar.98 model did not have a bare muzzle end or bayonet fitting, these being introduced with the Kar.98AV variant, with the exposed muzzle part about half the length of the exposed part on a rifle - also, no cleaning rod under the barrel, I think, which the Gew.98 has!

Julian

[shippingsteel]

GreyC, good question not many have even seen one, but luckily we do have records.! I will add an illustration to assist, please see below. 

The original Kar98 carbines were quite short-lived as they didn't perform very well and were soon replaced by the Kar98AZ short rifle which we commonly see in the GW. 

So the Kav.Kar.98 had the short barrel with snub-nose and flat bolt handle made for carrying in rifle scabbards on horseback. 

The Art.Kar.98 was identical except for the addition of the stacking hook, so the gunners could pile their weapons in neat stacks.

The Kar.98A was virtually the same as the above but with the provision to fit the bayonet. None of these variants were considered successful. Which is why you find them despatched to the Colonies.!

Cheers, SS 

[trajan]

12 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

,,,None of these variants were considered successful. Which is why you find them despatched to the Colonies.!

Cheers, SS 

Thanks SS - but the Kar.98AZ did inspire the Kar.98 of ww2 fame! 

[GreyC]

Thank you guys, very helpful!

GreyC

[shippingsteel]

I said the 3 original Kar98 variants were not successful. Their successor the Kar98AZ short rifle was very successful and as I mentioned commonly seen in the GW. 

For GreyC here is the link I posted previously which shows the original Art.Kar.98 variant in the hands of the Schutztruppen. A very short and uncomfortable weapon to use.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/paranoid_womb/6928341734/

Cheers, SS 

[trajan]

11 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/paranoid_womb/6928341734/

 

Excellent discussion there as well. So, the Kar.98 is 98 cm or so, the Gew.98 is around 1.25, and the WW2 version at 1.10. 

[GreyC]

Thanks!

I just checked my collection. Photos of soldiers from the German colonies are not in the focus of my collecting interests. Though I do have about 20 or so photos they do not show guns or show them in a way, that won´t give away their type. Too bad.

One I have probably shows a civilian gun, too old to be of use other than as decoration. Maybe the sidearm is of interest, though. Could it be a SG 71?

GreyC

Edited 3 January , 2022 by GreyC

[AndyBsk]

From the Goetz book is clear the 1904/5 year could be only Kar98a in numbers that were significant, the Modell was approved 1902 but production stopped already 1905,because there were problem with spitz round, the well known Kar98AZ was started serial production much later, and the design was approved 1908 by Emperor.

I assume the KS stamps with high numbers are inventory numbers, that could be used inside of Colonial units, wout additional unit stamp, as the formation were changed there fluently, evidently as exist from Ball book the F.P 3.72 stamp on cavalry Kar98 and was found in South Africa is evident that there existed other Gew98 rifles marked in same way by same armorer, in same timeframe.

And from the picture of Carbines postwar Kar.98b is in reality long rifle not a carbine even so officially designed the lenght was 125cm.

Kar98a had a 43,5cm barell lenght

Kar98AZ a 59cm barell lenght, with complete lenght 109cm.

Edited 3 January , 2022 by AndyBsk

[shippingsteel]

Had to share this outstanding colourised image of a Mounted Infantry member of the Schutztruppe, showing how they would have looked in the field. The rifle is the Gew98 in its leather boot, showing impressive detail of the cleaning rod and protective muzzle cap.

Most definitely Schutztruppen zu Pferde.! 

Cheers, SS 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rccolor/40090995785/in/photostream

Edited 5 January , 2022 by shippingsteel

[trajan]

I like the muzzle cap!

[trajan]

1 hour ago, shippingsteel said:

 

... Most definitely Schutztruppen zu Pferde.! 

 

Quite. But before anyone gets carried away by the idea that the 'P' in 'F.P.' refers to a fully mounted unit with the Schutztruppe my impression is from the sources that there were mounted platoons only within each regiment, not a separately constituted cavalry-type unit. E.g., this quote from p.98 of the account of the 1904 campaign: "Major v. Estorff befahl der 4. Kompagnie, links des berittenen Zuges der 6. Kompagnie vorzugehen" = freely translated as "Major v. Estorff ordered the 4th Company to advance to the left of the mounted platoon of the 6th Company".

Trajan

[AndyBsk]

Excellent picture, the long rifle Gew98 looks like not a extra good choice for cavalry, as no possible to add backside on body and too long bayonets, so i assume KS98 were for this reason as major bayonet used  even not a MG units.

[shippingsteel]

And then there is this photo of the Kamel troops, which is possibly one of the best of the Schutztruppen taken in the field during the Herero War dated 1904, from the Bundesarchiv so a reputable source. Who would have guessed they needed so many Kamel-reiters.?

The original caption states ... "Deutsch-Sudwestafrika Hereroaufstand 1904 Kamelreiterkompanie der deutschen Schutztruppe"  ... so an entire company of camel cavalry  ... funny that doesn't appear more prominently in the "order of battle".! You also see some mounted horseman in that image to the very left. 

Cheers, SS

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-R24738,_Deutsch-Südwestafrika,_Herero-Aufstand.jpg

Edited 5 January , 2022 by shippingsteel

[GreyC]

Here is a photo from my collection mailed August 1910.

GreyC

[shippingsteel]

Thanks for posting GreyC, that appears to be an SG98 bayonet on the hip of the first Kamel-reiter. 

Cheers, SS 

[shippingsteel]

8 hours ago, trajan said:

Quite. But before anyone gets carried away by the idea that the 'P' in 'F.P.' refers to a fully mounted unit with the Schutztruppe my impression is from the sources that there were mounted platoons only within each regiment ...

Well the organisation list from Genwiki says otherwise, do we know where that information was taken from.? What was the source document, it would be good to check it out further.

See a couple of snapshots I took from it for illustration purposes. As noted the 1st Feld-regiment was mounted, but they also had a number of independent Truppen some of which may well have been mounted, including the Kamelreiter Kompanie I see. 

Also of note, several Pferde-depot and even a Kamel "stud".! Possibly the Kamel equivalent of the Pferde-depot.! 

Cheers, SS 

http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Schutztruppe_für_Deutsch-Südwestafrika_(Kaiserreich)

[GreyC]

22 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

Possibly the Kamel equivalent of the Pferde-depot.! 

Well actually, if the word stands for what it means in German, the difference between Depot and Gestüt is that at a depot, the horses were just "parked" till they were assigned to their units, whereas a Gestüt is a place for breeding (horses or camels).

Best,

GreyC

PS: Thanks for identifying the SG 98!

 

Edited 5 January , 2022 by GreyC

[trajan]

8 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Well the organisation list from Genwiki says otherwise, do we know where that information was taken from.? What was the source document, it would be good to check it out further.

See a couple of snapshots I took from it for illustration purposes. As noted the 1st Feld-regiment was mounted, but they also had a number of independent Truppen some of which may well have been mounted, including the Kamelreiter Kompanie I see. ...

 

Well, that web-source is known to contain mistakes as Andy the Prussian can confirm. 

I have always understood a 'Feldregiment (beritten)' to be a part mounted unit, rather like a Roman cohors equitata(!) - basically an infantry unit with a cavalry complement. If I understand the symbols on p.218 of the 1904 Heroen Krieg volume correctly, only the 3rd and 8th companies of the 1 Feld Regiments were mounted. As is always the case, I am happy to be corrected if wrong!

Oddly enough the volumes on 1904 and 1905 campaigns hardly mention Camels, and certainly not - as far as I can see - in the sense of a Kamel Korps. The Bundesarchiv is indeed a reputable source, but mistakes in cataloguing (and identifying!) are known to happen in even the best of archive sources. 

Trajan

[trajan]

I am supposed to be marking final essays but the apparent lack of mention of Kamelreiter in the Heroan and Tottenton wars mystified me. So, I have instead scoured the volume for the first war and cannot find any mention of these. However, I am now looking at the report on the Tottentot camaign, and there are mentions of Kamelreiterpatrouillen. 

I'l see what else I can find...

[bert.f]

Hello,

Information from the "Deutsche Kolonialblatt " 1905 year, the departure to the  South West Afrika, from Hamburg to Swakopmund 23.12.1904,

strength of the transport:

- Stab,1. und 2. Proviantkolonne der 3. ( Proviant) kolonnenabteilung in der Starke von 10 offizieren,1 sanitatsoffiziere, 2 zahlmeistern,1 oberveterinar, 1 buchsenmacher, 27 unteroffizieren,2 sanitatsunteroffizieren, 296 mann und 92 Pferden

- die 4 (Fuhrpark) kolonnenabteilung in der starke von 5 offizieren,8 unteroffizieren, 60 mann

-zur Verstarkung der 1.(Fuhrpark) Kolonnenabteilung ,1 offizier,1 zahlmeisteraspirant, 58 unteroffiziere, 229 mann