Imperial German S 1898 aA Sawback ~ F.P.3.33. regimental........? ? ?

[ersatz]

I feel the regimental on this early S98 Sawback belongs to a Fortress Engineer Detachment, it is an Erfurt W99.  I have never come across this marking and feel it is in all likelihood a scarce one.   Am I safe to assume it is the equivalent of a Pioneer Construction Battalion ?  I was told by its knowledgeable former owner that it was purchased from South Africa.   I would like to find out more information concerning this regimental and its association to fortresses.  Any input and direction would be much appreciated.  

[AndyBsk]

Question is the unit is on cleaned surface or not, possible there was other unit filled out and this unit was applied later, 1899 would be probably strange for pioneer units. One explanation could be the Fortress Pioneer unit, second could be Feld Pioneer Battalion, 3.company, weapon nr.33

[trajan]

Not a straightforward mark... The official mark for a 'Festungs Pionier' unit was, as in the example given in the 1909 regulations, page 61, '3.P.2.F.3.', which the regulations explain as: '2 Festungs Kompanie, des Branbednburgischen Pionier-Bataillions Nr.3, waffe Nr. 3'. 

Rather cumbersome, I think you would agree! 

There certainly were Festungs Pionier-Bataillions, but these were numbered in sequence, as with regiments, and there are no such markings on this. 

As I undrstand it, the Festungs Pionier-Bataillions were used in attacking enemy fortresses, but AndyB might well correct me. 

Julian

[shippingsteel]

How about a marking to a Fortress garrison unit, just a suggestion, as it doesn't appear to be a standard marking.?

Festung Posen comes to mind as a large Prussian fortress of the period, located in Posznan, now part of Poland. 

Cheers, SS 

 

[trajan]

11 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

How about a marking to a Fortress garrison unit, just a suggestion, as it doesn't appear to be a standard marking.?

Festung Posen comes to mind as a large Prussian fortress of the period, located in Posznan, now part of Poland. 

Cheers, SS 

 

I thought about that... But as far as I can determine, from what copies of the regulations I have at home, those single letter place marks as with 'P' for Posen are normally used to denote the Artillerie depot that a Belagerungs-Artillerietrain and the Ingenieurstaebe units attached to, and in both cases would be preceded by the relevant unit abbreviation.

In the 1877 original it reads (and more or less the same reading for both Belagerungs-Artillerietrain and the Ingenieurstaebe):  ;... die waffen erhalten neben der Bezichnung ubd der laufenden Nr. noch den Anfangsbuchstaben der Artillerie-Depots in welchen dieselben in Frieden aufbewahrt werden... Es bedeutet demnach ... P. [=] Posen  In otherwords, there should be an abbreviation for the Belagerungs-Artillerietrain and the Ingenieurstaebe before the 'F.P.'

I'll check some more when I can, as it is an interesting suggestion, even if I can't totally agree with it. 

 

 

[AndyBsk]

In genwiki similar Festungs pionier battalion are not listed, so even some of the Pionier Regiments or Battalions were declared as Festungs in part of the unit, a similar unit as Festung Pionier Battalion are typical for WW2, so there should be looked to manual 1909 what came to possibilities with F letter, i personally tend to Feld battalion nr.I of unknown Pionier Battalion that was raised in 1914, 3 company is the highest by similar Feld Batt. Should be exactly looked on crossguard as it looks that is flatened by filing of previous unit, i personally believe that 99 S98 bayonets were mainly distributed by Garde, so it could be firstly started by one units and later used and restamped. 

Festung Posen as unit? hard to say, why 3 companies?

[shippingsteel]

Here is a link to a wartime postcard from a Feldwebel stationed at Posen. Interesting to note the "unit" is simply listed as FKP Posen and this abbreviation is also seen on the motorcycle. The postmark also indicates a Kraftwagenpark so the abbreviation is most likely Festung-Kraftwagen-Park Posen. Doesn't answer the question but does add some background regarding the activities at Posen which was one of the largest Prussian fortresses of the GW period. 

Cheers, SS 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/karl_bandow/50950709413

[ersatz]

Thank you SS, trajan, and AndyB!  I was afraid the topic was "dead-in-the-water".  It no doubt is an very unusual marking.  I found information concerning the Posen Fortress and others in Africa, but nothing referring to engineers, or pioneers.   I carefully checked the cross guard to note any evidence due to machining and possible restamping, but the regimental certainly appears to be the original marking ( left cross guard outer edges are rounded over as is the right side ).   Thank you for your continued interest and input gentlemen!

[bert.f]

Hello,

3 Festungs-Inspection Posen ?

 

[trajan]

9 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Here is a link to a wartime postcard from a Feldwebel stationed at Posen. Interesting to note the "unit" is simply listed as FKP Posen and this abbreviation is also seen on the motorcycle. The postmark also indicates a Kraftwagenpark so the abbreviation is most likely Festung-Kraftwagen-Park Posen. Doesn't answer the question but does add some background regarding the activities at Posen which was one of the largest Prussian fortresses of the GW period. 

Cheers, SS 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/karl_bandow/50950709413

Thanks SS! an interesting one... The official name of the unit on the postmark is, by the way, the Lastkraftwagenpark Posen, the 'L.K.P.' being Herr Lehman's own abbreviated name for his unit, as on the registration plaque for the motorcycle.

If you search German postcards further you will find some marked to Festungs-Pionier or like-named units, e.g., 2. Lothringisches (Festung) Pionier-Bataillon Nr. 20, as at http://pommerschespionier.com/index.php/collection/postcard/ but these are companies from regular Pionier units.

Trajan

[trajan]

8 hours ago, ersatz said:

Thank you SS, trajan, and AndyB!  I was afraid the topic was "dead-in-the-water".  It no doubt is an very unusual marking.  

That is the beauty of this thread - the chance to discuss and analyse such markings, usually without too much acrimony!

It is a live and learn experience for most followers - I, for one, have never really looked at these 'Fortress units' before, which in fact ranked quite high-up in the Imperial German army. Their MG and 'Bau' units apart, I knew nothing about them!

Julian

[shippingsteel]

The abbreviation for the unit is as I mentioned, FKP Posen on the handwriting, the same letters as the FKP on the motorcycle. The stamp does say Lastkraftwagen Park which I believe is Heavy Lorries.

But to really test your eyesight did anyone notice the placard on the Lorry in the background ... it looks very much like Fest.P. to me, along with the number 155.

Cheers, SS 

Edited 30 December , 2021 by shippingsteel

[AndyBsk]

As mentioned there are more explanation , the 1897 manual speaks for similar details. F.P it could be Festung Park too, anyway the 3 company is little strange, as similar Fortress units were  in range of Abteilungen. FKP on motorcycle could be Fahrrad Kompanie Posen to sample,Fuhrpark Kolonne Posen. There is mounted IOD1889 sword on the motorbike.

F.  Füsilier, Festungs, Fuß,  Fuhrpark - (Kolonne)

P. Pionier, Proviant, Pferde (Depot), Park, (Jäger oder Gendarmerie Regiment) zu Pferde

The F and P are different sizes dies. From all this i tend to war period unit.

Edited 30 December , 2021 by AndyBsk

[bert.f]

Hello'

No dot between the letters F and P,

Fuhrpark-Kolonne NR 3, waffe 33, Schutztruppe of South west Africa

[trajan]

On 30/12/2021 at 10:55, shippingsteel said:

The abbreviation for the unit is as I mentioned, FKP Posen on the handwriting, the same letters as the FKP on the motorcycle. The stamp does say Lastkraftwagen Park which I believe is Heavy Lorries.

But to really test your eyesight did anyone notice the placard on the Lorry in the background ... it looks very much like Fest.P. to me, along with the number 155.

Cheers, SS 

SS, maybe time to treat yourself to a copy of Jochen Vollert's Lastkraftwagen - German Military Trucks Vol. 1

14 hours ago, bert.f said:

Hello'

No dot between the letters F and P,

Fuhrpark-Kolonne NR 3, waffe 33, Schutztruppe of South west Africa

Why Schutztruppe? 

There are simply too many possibilities with this one... I have recorded a scant few 'F' for Festung marks, and these are always followed by the name of the abteilung, e.g., 'F.F' for Festungs Fernsprecher. The only one I have listed with any form of identifier for the actual festung is  'F.M.G.F.K.W.II.66', for M.G.[Kompanie] Festung KaiserWilhelm II.

I know that SS will cling to his Festung Posen idea - it is possible, but in my view unlikely.

Trajan

[bert.f]

http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Schutztruppe_für_Deutsch-Südwestafrika_(Kaiserreich)

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/documented-firearms-of-the-schutztruppe-and-other-colonial-forces.1206706/

 

[trajan]

Hmmm... I would feel a lot happier wit this interpretation if the originator of that gunboards post could give some idea of why he thinks F.P, would be a Scutztruppe abbreviation - e.g., does he have a copy of an original official list of Schutztruppe markings... It would also help if he published an example!

Julian 

[bert.f]

 

http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk/militaria/bayonets dswa.htm

Edited 31 December , 2021 by bert.f

[AndyBsk]

Should be compared for size the F letter of unit, could be then the piece is Fuhrpark Kollone Proviant abteilung nr.3 , anyway by Train with long S98 would be probably problem. majority of equipment was with KS98 marked K.Sch. on crossguard, wout exact denoting of unit inside of trupp.

Edited 31 December , 2021 by AndyBsk

[shippingsteel]

Another similar thread found here 

https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/research-project-firearms-of-imperial-german-colonial-forces.39183/

So two other similar FP markings have been reported, both found on Kar98 carbines, which normally would not attach the S98 bayonet.

1901 Kar98  ...  FP. 3.72

1904 Kar98  ...  FP. 1.32

[shippingsteel]

Of particular interest is the comparison of the fonts used on the Original S98 and the S98 bayonet shown in the German colonial uniforms thread. The F looks an exact match I would think of a fairly unusual font with extremely heavy serif.

Cheers, SS 

[trajan]

5 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Should be compared for size the F letter of unit, could be then the piece is Fuhrpark Kollone Proviant abteilung nr.3 , anyway by Train with long S98 would be probably problem. majority of equipment was with KS98 marked K.Sch. on crossguard, wout exact denoting of unit inside of trupp.

The references in German that I have found all name the Schutztruppe {Fuhrpark} Kolonne as 'Abteilung', with a Roman numeral, I, II, III, etc. They also simply list them as 'Kolonne'. Given that there are no separate markings for Schutztruppen MG units, Camel units, etc., I agree with Andy. The Schutztruppe were Imperial units, and so would need some form of identifying mark to indicate that  

4 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Another similar thread found here 

https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/research-project-firearms-of-imperial-german-colonial-forces.39183/

So two other similar FP markings have been reported, both found on Kar98 carbines, which normally would not attach the S98 bayonet.

1901 Kar98  ...  FP. 3.72

1904 Kar98  ...  FP. 1.32

Yes, but SS, you are missing the point. On who's say-so and on what grounds are these marks to be identified as Schutztruppen markings? I have that FP.3.72 marking listed (not the other one though), and I found that in Noll's Imperial German Regimental Markings - he identifies it as a regular army Fuhrpark-Kolonne marking, which I agree with.

It has always bothered me when people suggest an identification for a marking that is noit supportable by any other evidence - or at odds with the regulations - the Germans were pretty thorough in regulations on such markings and frequently updated them.  So, the problem I have with the FP marking shown on the https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/research-project-firearms-of-imperial-german-colonial-forces.39183/ link - on what grounds is that ID made?

Another thing to bear in mind - I can't check with my volume on the German colonial forces as it is in my office. But did the Schutztruppe ever have Kar.98's? 

Trajan

[trajan]

5 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Of particular interest is the comparison of the fonts used on the Original S98 and the S98 bayonet shown in the German colonial uniforms thread. The F looks an exact match I would think of a fairly unusual font with extremely heavy serif.

Cheers, SS 

A good match and well spotted! BUT, you will find that same 'F' and emphasised serifs on some Ks98's issued to, e.g., Fortress Fernsprecher companies, as in Jackson's book, p.101.

Trajan 

[bert.f]

Hello

http://ycgg.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/kar98.pdf

 

Happy new year 2022

Robert

[trajan]

Happy New Year to Robert and all followers!

Still not convinced by this identification - does this carbine have a a chain of evidence directly associating it with the Schutztruppen or is it just assumed to be Schutztruppen because it is in a South African collection?  Think on, for example, all the P.1907 bayonets I see in Turkey, some of them HQ versions, which are always assumed to be Gallipoli (or Kut) specimens because they are for sale in Turkey. I like to think some are, but some unit markings on these are for regiments that were never here...

Julian