Was this man in a medical corps?

[RaySearching]

Now I could be wrong but I think the photos are of two different ladys  The lady Looks rather younger in the second photo taken years later

I haven't looked at the family  tree, second photo a sister or a sister in law's wedding perhaps

 

Ray

 

[jay dubaya]

For what it’s worth, whilst I can see many similarities, I’m not sure it’s the same couple at all. 

[RaySearching]

1 hour ago, jay dubaya said:

For what it’s worth, whilst I can see many similarities, I’m not sure it’s the same couple at all.

Quite possibly not 

I'm leaning towards the photo of the soldier in uniform and his bride as having been misidentified and the photo of the soldier in uniform, is not Frank Yates at all

I would expect as the soldier (if Frank Yates ) having served overseas to have a MIC or an entry in the medal rolls, indicating that at some point he served with the R.A.M.C  I am not seeing this

 

Ray

 

[Suziq]

17 hours ago, RaySearching said:

Quite possibly not 

I'm leaning towards the photo of the soldier in uniform and his bride as having been misidentified and the photo of the soldier in uniform, is not Frank Yates at all

I would expect as the soldier (if Frank Yates ) having served overseas to have a MIC or an entry in the medal rolls, indicating that at some point he served with the R.A.M.C  I am not seeing this

 

Ray

 

My mother knew both Frank and Beatrice and confirmed that they are the same couple in the two photos.

[Suziq]

Please could one of you clarify why Frank had 3 chevrons while another soldier, whose photo appears in this thread, had four.  Is it something to do with the length of service?

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, Suziq said:

Please could one of you clarify why Frank had 3 chevrons while another soldier, whose photo appears in this thread, had four.  Is it something to do with the length of service?

Yes.

Each (full or part) year overseas gave 1 chevron.

Craig

[Andrew Upton]

7 minutes ago, Suziq said:

Please could one of you clarify why Frank had 3 chevrons while another soldier, whose photo appears in this thread, had four.  Is it something to do with the length of service?

A bit of a cut and paste job - with Overseas Service Chevrons  a man became entitled to his first stripe the day he served overseas, and did not become entitled to a second until he had accumulated a further 12 months overseas service (with an allowance of up to one months leave per year to still be counted towards his total)... This of course would not represent any time served that wasn't overseas (leave over the one month per year rule, recovering from wounds in the UK, training, etc). After they were introduced in early 1918 entitlement was retroactively employed, but outside the red stripe for 1914 they do not represent specific years. Service overseas up until May 1920 was still counted towards the total, and their wear were not discontinued until 1922.

 

Edited 28 November , 2021 by Andrew Upton

[Andrew Upton]

2 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Each (full or part) year overseas gave 1 chevron.

Craig - this is not correct, see above.

[jay dubaya]

6 minutes ago, Suziq said:

Please could one of you clarify why Frank had 3 chevrons while another soldier, whose photo appears in this thread, had four.  Is it something to do with the length of service?

One chevron for each year of service overseas. The 1914 chevron was red and appear almost black in photographs. Each subsequent year was blue.

One problem we have here Suziq is that we cannot find any Frank Yates serving in the RAMC while his brother Cyril did hold the rank of Sgt with the RAMC he didn’t serve overseas and so would not be eligible to wear OS chevrons.

[Suziq]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

A bit of a cut and paste job - with Overseas Service Chevrons  a man became entitled to his first stripe the day he served overseas, and did not become entitled to a second until he had accumulated a further 12 months overseas service (with an allowance of up to one months leave per year to still be counted towards his total)... And this of course would not represent any time served that wasn't overseas (leave over the one month per year rule, recovering from wounds in the UK, training, etc). After they were introduced in early 1918 entitlement was retroactively employed, but outside the red stripe for 1914 they do not represent specific years. Service overseas up until May 1920 was still counted towards the total, and their wear were not discontinued until 1922.

Thank you.  So, just to clarify, after 12 months overseas, a soldier would have two checvrons and after a further 12 months, 3 chevrons?

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, Andrew Upton said:

Craig - this is not correct, see above.

In which way ? 

Craig

[Andrew Upton]

1 minute ago, jay dubaya said:

One chevron for each year of service overseas...

Jay - as I mentioned above this isn't correct. It is entirely possible for a soldier to have two stripes and only 11 months and 1 days overseas service to his credit for example.

 

Just now, ss002d6252 said:

In which way ? 

Craig

See above. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

3 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

Jay - as I mentioned above this isn't correct. It is entirely possible for a soldier to have two stripes and only 11 months and 1 days overseas service to his credit for example.

But he wouldn't receive the second chevron until the anniversary of first going abroad. He wouldn't receive the second chevron eleven months after going overseas.

[Andrew Upton]

Just now, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

But he wouldn't receive the second chevron until the anniversary of first going abroad. He wouldn't receive the second chevron eleven months after going overseas.

Yes, but that could still include the leave of up to one month (ie not necessarily representing an actual physical full year of overseas service). This is a very important difference when trying to calculate the time represented by chevrons.

[Andrew Upton]

11 minutes ago, Suziq said:

Thank you.  So, just to clarify, after 12 months overseas, a soldier would have two chevrons and after a further 12 months, 3 chevrons?

Sort of. Day one overseas - soldier entitled to first stripe. One year after day one - if soldier has more more than 11 months or more additional overseas service in this time he gets the second stripe. And so on.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

5 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

Yes, but that could still include the leave of up to one month (ie not necessarily representing an actual physical full year of overseas service). This is a very important difference when trying to calculate the time represented by chevrons.

Yes, we realise that, but for assisting the research of a newcomer and the sake of simplicity, I think we should stick to the 'One stripe per year' generalisation and add that 'Ts & Cs apply'. In this instance, the difference doesn't seem to be important, in that we are trying to show why the photo is not 1913.

Edited 28 November , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Suziq]

5 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

Sort of. Day one overseas - soldier entitled to first stripe. One year after day one - if soldier has more more than 11 months or more additional overseas service in this time he gets the second stripe. And so on.

Thank you.  In the absence of the war service record, it gives a rough idea of how long he had been overseas.

[TEW]

For me the similarities in the 'bride' and the later sitting photo are quite striking. The only inconsistencies are their apparent ages.

'Bride' photo compared to sitting photo. Male looks older, female younger.

This is reversed in the sitting photo.

Male's parting in sitting photo is centre, hint of a parting on the right in 'bride' version.

As a male/female pair both photos would be remarkable if they're not the same people.

Is there any chance of getting a zoomed in hi-res image of his left breast pocket area with the three stripes? I don't think there's evidence of any other ribbon and perhaps the three stripes can be conclusively identified as MSM?

My original suggestion of R. Crook was based on a search for Royal Army Medical Corps specifying warrant and meritorious which I cross referenced to marriages in district 8e 1st Qtr. 1913 (now known to be the wrong date).

Not putting forward other contenders but I had ten results from the original search.

There will be standard problems with these ten as I can only find MSM cards for some of them and no MIC! Then there's T. Jones!

Three were commissioned and at least one should have a red OS chevron and one looks to be AAMC.

My ten are unlikely to be the only contenders. He may have a complex history regarding promotions and how that's reflected on medal records.

TEW

 

[RaySearching]

On 28/11/2021 at 17:31, TEW said:

Is there any chance of getting a zoomed in hi-res image of his left breast pocket area with the three stripes? I don't think there's evidence of any other ribbon and perhaps the three stripes can be conclusively identified as MSM?

Suziq

Is it possible to have a close up scan of the medal ribbon as suggested by TEW above

[TEW]

I asked partly because I spotted a similar ribbon in another post. The difference being the position on the chest. Were there any regulations as to where the ribbon could be placed?

Third photo down, back row, 2nd in from right.

TEW

 

[CorporalPunishment]

I have no doubt at all that the medal ribbon is the post-1917 version for the Meritorious Service Medal.     Pete.