Was this man in a medical corps?

[Suziq]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

And here is a RAMC Quarter-Master-Sergeant (the rank immediately below warrant officer second class) with his badge of four large inverted chevrons on both lower sleeves.  It is this that you had misunderstood Suziq.

Many thanks for the photos.  I am happier now, having seen the badges in that position on the sleeve.  You are all being very patient with me!

[FROGSMILE]

And here are two RAMC warrant officers, wearing the badge of rank of the second class, post summer 1915.  Notice that one has been unable to get the larger (correct) version of his brass badge and so has made use of the smaller type that would earlier have been part of his previous badge as a staff sergeant (small brass crown above three stripes, upper arm).  The other is wearing the cloth variant of the badge.

Edited 26 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, Suziq said:

Thank you for the detailed explanation of the badges on Frank's sleeve.  I am wondering whether the photograph was taken after the war.  They couldhave dressed in their smatest, most significant clothes to mark the occasion of Frank's safe return.  As you see from the information above, Frank only got married once. The attached photo shows the couple in more everyday clothes, possibly with Frank looking a bit younger.  Frank's service record may well have been one of the many destroyed in WW2.

That does seem the most likely scenario, given the badge evidence, and that most middle class wives of those times apparently preserved their wedding dresses as keepsakes (i.e. from such a special day in their lives - often with a view to handing on to daughters one day).  Perhaps the couple had been unable to afford a photographer at the time of the wedding. 

Edited 26 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

There is a Frank Yates with an MSM but from RFA 11129 & RE 604803. Rank = Driver. Gazetted as RFA in Peace Gazette.

Is it without doubt this man is wearing a MSM ribbon?

Stretching plausibility here that a Driver from RFA/RE is promoted to WOII and transfers to RAMC post war.

Frank's brother married in 1920.

Beatrice had 6 siblings, she was the youngest. Unless a brother married a young woman circa 1918 this is also clutching at straws.

TEW

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Well.

I'm willing to accept that this man has been positively identified by your mother, and that he is pictured in both photographs with the same person, whom we have no reason to dispute is Beatrice his wife.

We know that the wedding picture is December 1917 at the very earliest.

Is this a wedding reconstruction photo?
Or as previously suggested, a thanksgiving ceremony for Frank's safe return? Might there be a reference in local papers to his return, or for such a ceremony?
Or re-affirming of marriage vows?

I've looked at census details, and excluded an identical twin, or similar aged sibling. She had a sister 6 years older, but I find the similarities between the women in the two photos too great for them to be two sisters, six years different in age.
I can't suggest anything else I'm afraid.
 

 

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Well.

I'm willing to accept that this man has been positively identified by your mother, and that he is pictured in both photographs with the same person, whom we have no reason to dispute is Beatrice his wife.

We know that the wedding picture is December 1917 at the very earliest.

Is this a wedding reconstruction photo?
Or as previously suggested, a thanksgiving ceremony for Frank's safe return? Might there be a reference in local papers to his return, or for such a ceremony?
Or re-affirming of marriage vows?

I've looked at census details, and excluded an identical twin, or similar aged sibling. She had a sister 6 years older, but I find the similarities between the women in the two photos too great for them to be two sisters, six years different in age.
I can't suggest anything else I'm afraid.
 

 

Reaffirming of marriage vows does seem another good possibility Dai, given suziq’s suggestion that the photo might’ve been (probably was) taken post war.  I don’t know how common such reaffirmations were back then, but ostensibly it seems a more plausible reasoning than the theoretical absence of a photographer in 1913.

Edited 26 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[alf mcm]

Perhaps a forum member has a copy of the book 'The Meritorious Service Medal: The Immediate Awards 1916-1928' by Ian McInnes, and can look it up to see if Frank is mentioned?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Meritorious-Service-Medal-Immediate-Awards-1916-1928-Paperback-/194177687893?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338268676&toolid=10044&customid=EAIaIQobChMIvsuvwoi29AIVSu3tCh2vNAyOEAQYBSABEgKkJfD_BwE

Regards,

Alf McM

 

[Suziq]

If Frank received the MSM, would he have lised in the London Gazette?

[charlie962]

3 hours ago, TEW said:

There is a Frank Yates with an MSM but from RFA 11129 & RE 604803. Rank = Driver. Gazetted as RFA in Peace Gazette.

This man RFA 11129 was 38 in 1916 according to Hospital Admissions so that rules him out for sure.

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, Suziq said:

If Frank received the MSM, would he have lised in the London Gazette?

I think most, if not all, were listed but trying to find them can be very difficult.

Craig

[Suziq]

2 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

I think most, if not all, were listed but trying to find them can be very difficult.

Craig

I have just searched 1914-1920 in the Gazette for Frank Yates and the only one was a serjeant in the Royal Berks promoted to 2nd lieutenant in 1917.

[TEW]

20 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Looking at the picture, and the likely timing of it, I would suggest that Frank served only at home. This, unfortunately, makes it far harder to track down details.

Craig

Overseas Stripes?

TEW

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, TEW said:

Overseas Stripes?

TEW

Durrrr, of course  - ignore what I said. Flicking between doing different things !

Craig

[ss002d6252]

Did a man get overseas chevrons for service in areas that did not qualify for BWM/VM entitlement?

Craig

[charlie962]

May I suggest the photo is actually Sergt Cyril Yates RAMC, Frank's younger brother?  No 172 or 174 then 357102

I am not sure he ever served overseas. He has Service Record on FindmyPast although no mention of MSM.

charlie

Edit b 15/1/1893, married Ethel A Leah in 1920.

Edit Edit  Disembodied and Trfd to Z Reserve 14/6/19

 

Edited 26 November , 2021 by charlie962

[ss002d6252]

14 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

May I suggest the photo is actually Sergt Cyril Yates RAMC, Frank's younger brother?  No 372/ 357102

I am not sure he ever served overseas. He has Service Record on FindmyPast although no mention of MSM.

charlie

Edit b 15/1/1893, married Ethel A Leah in 1920.

Edit Edit  Disembodied and Trfd to Z Reserve 14/6/19

 

The overseas chevrons would be important in this case but certainly, a man to look slightly closer at.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

Looks like Cyril stayed at the one location for the whole of his service.

https://search-findmypast-co-uk.libezproxy.open.ac.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007272204%2F00272&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7272204%2F21%2F272

Craig

[charlie962]

3 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

overseas chevrons would be important in this case but certainly, a man to look slightly closer at.

That rules out cyril because he did not serve overseas (nor can I find MSM)

[Suziq]

To sum up, Frank was a Warrant Officer Second Class in the RAMC and the photo of himself in uniform was taken after December 1917, when the overseas chevrons were intorduced.  Whether he was awarded the MSM is open to question as it is difficult to see what was pinned to his jacket above the left pocket and the award is not listed in The London Gazette.  Could anything else have been placed in that position?

Thanks to all of you who have contributed to smoothing out my  furrowed brow!

[ss002d6252]

11 minutes ago, Suziq said:

Could anything else have been placed in that position?

Very unlikely any soldier would place anything other than a medal ribbon there. So, some medal but which...

Craig

[Suziq]

6 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Very unlikely any soldier would place anything other than a medal ribbon there. So, some medal but which...

Craig

Part of the fun of family history is to have a mystery lurking in the background.  Occasionally all is revealed, but very rarely!

[TEW]

8 hours ago, Suziq said:

Thank you for your patience!  Yes, Frank Yates (no further forename) was identified in the photograph by my mother, who knew him.  He was born 1 September 1888 in Wesham, Lancashire.  Wesham is adjacent to Kirkham.  The marriage48619 definitely took place in March 1913.

His birth date seems to float about.

An Ancestry tree links to docs that have 3/12/1888 but his death cert has 1/12/1889.

TEW

[Suziq]

4 minutes ago, TEW said:

His birth date seems to float about.

An Ancestry tree links to docs that have 3/12/1888 but his death cert has 1/12/1889.

TEW

I made a mistake with his d.o.b.  It was in December, not September!  I tell myself to always double-check anything I find on Ancestry as people have been known to make wrong connections.  My tree is here: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/158153715/person/392319056891/facts

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, Suziq said:

I made a mistake with his d.o.b.  It was in December, not September! 

Yes, but it was 1889 probably not 1888. Indeed, his birth wasn't registered until the first quarter of 1890!

Births Mar 1890   (>99%)
Yates	Frank		Fylde	8e	685

Edited 26 November , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Suziq]

58 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Yes, but it was 1889 probably not 1888. Indeed, his birth wasn't registered until the first quarter of 1890!

Births Mar 1890   (>99%)
Yates	Frank		Fylde	8e	685

Yes, you have corrected me on that as well.  i really must check my typing before clicking on submit!