Was this man in a medical corps?

[Suziq]

I would like to identify what the man in the attached photo did in WW1.  Was he in a medical corps and can you tell me anything else about him from his uniform?  The photo appears to have been taken when he got married, which was in March 1913 in Kirkham, Lancashire.  Any help would e much appreciated.

[ss002d6252]

Quote

The photo appears to have been taken when he got married, which was in March 1913 in Kirkham, Lancashire.  Any help would e much appreciated.

Who do you think the man might be ?

He's wearing overseas service chevrons so has to be 1918 or later.
 

Craig

[TEW]

Expect to be corrected but I'd like to go with RAMC Warrant Officer, Class II?

Also has a medal ribbon, a Military Medal?

TEW

[charlie962]

15 minutes ago, TEW said:

a Military Medal?

I thought perhaps MSM ?

[TEW]

It may well be Richard Crook? He was #18833 WO Class II with MSM.

Could be a sister's wedding?

Not sure how the overseas stripes were awarded but he entered a theatre 20/8/1914. Not seeing a 14 Star ribbon on him.

TEW

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

21 minutes ago, TEW said:

Not sure how the overseas stripes were awarded but he entered a theatre 20/8/1914. Not seeing a 14 Star ribbon on him.

Any overseas service in theatre of war in 1914  would have earned a red chevron. This is usually visibly different to subsequent blue chevrons on a good quality photo like this one. (And you can see that the 3 chevrons are identical to each other and a much paler shade than the red in the red cross on his sleeve. Red appears darker than blue in prints made from orthochromatic film negatives of the day).

Edited 25 November , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Suziq]

The man in the photo is Frank Yates.  Please can you tell me what the circular badge with the cross in it signifies?

[Suziq]

I am thinking RAMC and possibly a sergeant, but why were the chevrons so low down the sleeve?

[Michelle Young]

They are , as explained further up the thread, overseas service chevrons, not rank chevrons.

[Michelle Young]

He’s definitely RAMC, he wears the Red Cross sleeve insignia, and I think the shoulder titles are big enough to show 4 letters. 

[Suziq]

Is it possible that the uniform could have been hired for the wedding? The uniform looks pristine to me.  I have failed to find a single photo of the RAMC where the badges are so low down the sleeve.  On the marriage certificate his occupation is given as a railway clerk.  He is listed as such on the 1939 Pre-War Register.  I think he served in WW1 because he is absent from the 1915 electoral register, but his wife is listed.  I have searched the war service records on Ancestry and Findmypast, but not found anything relating to him.

[Suziq]

I suppose hiring the uniform could have been illegal?

 

[Michelle Young]

The wedding cannot be in 1913 for reasons explained above. 

[ss002d6252]

10 hours ago, TEW said:

Expect to be corrected but I'd like to go with RAMC Warrant Officer, Class II?

Also has a medal ribbon, a Military Medal?

TEW

I think you're right with the crown patch.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

11 hours ago, Suziq said:

I would like to identify what the man in the attached photo did in WW1.  Was he in a medical corps and can you tell me anything else about him from his uniform?  The photo appears to have been taken when he got married, which was in March 1913 in Kirkham, Lancashire.  Any help would e much appreciated.

I think we need to go back to basics and ask;

a) Are we sure it is Frank Yates ?

and, if so.

b) what is his full name, date of birth and place of birth.

 

Craig

[Suziq]

Thank you for your patience!  Yes, Frank Yates (no further forename) was identified in the photograph by my mother, who knew him.  He was born 1 September 1888 in Wesham, Lancashire.  Wesham is adjacent to Kirkham.  The marriage definitely took place in March 1913.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Overseas service chevrons did not appear until December 1917 or January 1918.

Ergo, this is not a marriage in 1913.

If Frank Yates only ever married once, in 1913, then clearly, this is not Frank Yates getting married.

A call put out for confirmation from @FROGSMILE

Edited 26 November , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[TEW]

There have been topics on uniforms being borrowed for photos. Don't think there was any proof of that but it seemed to fit the scenario. Not so sure myself.

Can't find any medal details of a Frank Yates RAMC let alone a warrant officer with MSM.

Need a uniform expert, why the riding breeches and boots?

The chevrons on lower right sleeve means the photo cannot be 1913.

TEW

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

What was his wife's name? (Forename and maiden surname).

Edit:

Are we talking of this couple living at 208 Park Drive, Blackpool in 1939?:

Frank Yates                 dob 01/12/1889   Occupation Railway Clerk
Beatrice Helen Yates   dob 01/09/1888   Unpaid domesric duties

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/25294705:61596?_phsrc=jpv255&_phstart=successSource&gsln=Yates&ml_rpos=4&queryId=3e8d1fcf481c5004e97b3cbfde9c6867

 

Marriages Mar 1913   (>99%)

Fleetwood Beatrice H         Yates             Fylde 8e1181  

Yates Frank                          Fleetwood    Fylde 8e1181

 

Edited 26 November , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[TEW]

Is the lady Beatrice Fleetwood IE  Frank's wife?

It could be Frank but at another wedding.

TEaw

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Overseas service chevrons did not appear until December 1917 or January 1918.

Ergo, this is not a marriage in 1913.

If Frank Yates only ever married once, in 1913, then clearly, this is not Frank Yates getting married.

A call put out for confirmation from @FROGSMILE

I don’t know how much it will help but yes, I agree that the photo cannot have been taken in 1913, not only because of the overseas chevrons, but also because the plain crown badge was that of the then single class warrant officer until mid 1915, when it became the badge of the newly introduced warrant officer second class (effectively dividing warrant officers into two grades).  The RAMC WO shown is wearing a sword belt with brass frame buckle, as I would expect for someone of his grade.  The same applies to the leather gaiters and the brown dog skin gloves clutched in his left hand.  All are intended to convey a quasi officer-like status.  His jacket has also been retrofitted with mitre type (i.e. pointed) cuffs for the same reason.

NB.  The bride seems to have a palpably anxious looking appearance.  Given that it most definitely cannot be 1913 (the overseas service chevrons simply did not even exist then) might it be a second wife (wedding)?

Edited 26 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Suziq]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

What was his wife's name? (Forename and maiden surname).

Edit:

Are we talking of this couple living at 208 Park Drive, Blackpool in 1939?:

Frank Yates                 dob 01/12/1889   Occupation Railway Clerk
Beatrice Helen Yates   dob 01/09/1888   Unpaid domesric duties

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/25294705:61596?_phsrc=jpv255&_phstart=successSource&gsln=Yates&ml_rpos=4&queryId=3e8d1fcf481c5004e97b3cbfde9c6867

 

Marriages Mar 1913   (>99%)

Fleetwood Beatrice H         Yates             Fylde 8e1181  

Yates Frank                          Fleetwood    Fylde 8e1181

 

Yes, That is Frank and Beatrice Helen Yates.  Apologies for the incorrect month for his dob; it was December.

[Suziq]

Thank you for the detailed explanation of the badges on Frank's sleeve.  I am wondering whether the photograph was taken after the war.  They couldhave dressed in their smatest, most significant clothes to mark the occasion of Frank's safe return.  As you see from the information above, Frank only got married once. The attached photo shows the couple in more everyday clothes, possibly with Frank looking a bit younger.  Frank's service record may well have been one of the many destroyed in WW2.

[FROGSMILE]

Here are three RAMC warrant officers of the first class introduced mid-1915.  Notice that they all wear Sam Browne belts, plus the new badge of rank to define first class (a coat of arms).  Two wear the standard service dress jacket without alteration, but one (lowermost) has obtained an officer pattern service dress jacket, but with closed collar to delineate his status as being beneath a commissioned officer whose collar was open (notice the jackets inherent mitred cuffs on this pattern of garment).

Edited 26 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

And here is a RAMC Quarter-Master-Sergeant (the rank immediately below warrant officer second class) with his badge of four large inverted chevrons on both lower sleeves.  It is this that you had misunderstood Suziq.

Edited 26 November , 2021 by FROGSMILE