Monkeynuts Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 Hi this was started on my "Unfit For Service " thread but want to correct and add more info . As far as I am concerned my grandad was in the Dorset's (picture proof) and served in Mesopotamia with the Gurka's and was awarded a War and Victory medal but I have searched various places and for what I can believe is he was only in the army for two weeks due to being declared unfit for service home and abroad ?? was this a lie??? on the back of the picture its states Bagdad https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A000817-00244?pId=3898718 https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1114/images/miuk1914a_085029-02527?pId=365943 https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_636897_11040-00112?pId=1252439 ON the gold medal it has Dorset and his rank plus number so that ties up Would anyone go this far to hide the fact he may have been rejected ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 There are numerous examples of men re-enlisting after having been "rejected" due to medical conditions earlier in the war. Plus I have come across many examples of men hiding previous service for a multitude of reasons. The picture is staged and I am not convinced it was necessarily taken overseas, The question is of course how would he have got hold of the pith helmet etc if it was a fraud. If he did re-enlist his later servcice might be under an alias that may be difficult or impossible to find Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeynuts Posted 11 March , 2021 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2021 It all seems odd because he was a power station stoker after the war so he must have been strong but the records state not . The stories I know are he was going to live in India and the battalion was diverted to Mesopotamia with the Gurka's attached which to my mind is all true . I agree with the fake picture and as you how do you get the uniform plus the printing of Bagdad on the rear . It all stacks up and rings true until you read the enlistment docs but how did he get medals ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 Are you 100% sure it is him and not another relative ?. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeynuts Posted 11 March , 2021 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2021 1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said: Are you 100% sure it is him and not another relative ?. Craig Well I would say yes because the medal has his name rank number plus regiment and as far as I have researched no other family member was in the War other than a great uncle who won the DCM and was killed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 I note although in for just 2 weeks with the Royal Berks he actually received a SIlver War Badge under that number. The roll is dated Sept 1919. This to me would suggest no later service but it isn't proof one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 Just now, Monkeynuts said: Well I would say yes because the medal has his name rank number plus regiment and as far as I have researched no other family member was in the War other than a great uncle who won the DCM and was killed It's more the picture - you're sure the picture is him ? The medal card is clear that the man served overseas as he has the VM and BWM - that would fit with service abroad after 31 Dec 1915. There's nothing to stop a man from being discharged and then re-enlist - it happens quite a bit. Easiest way to check would be to see when #3777 was issued - if it's before the discharge date in the record then it can't be the same man. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeynuts Posted 11 March , 2021 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2021 1 minute ago, Mark1959 said: I note although in for just 2 weeks with the Royal Berks he actually received a SIlver War Badge under that number. The roll is dated Sept 1919. This to me would suggest no later service but it isn't proof one way or the other. This is the engraving on the medal which agrees with the paperwork . I am so confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 19 minutes ago, Monkeynuts said: It all stacks up and rings true until you read the enlistment docs but how did he get medals ??? Those 1915 enlisment papers refer to a man in the Berkshire Regt. No 18459. Why do you think they are your grandfather ? Was your GF born c December 1894 and living in Paddington ? charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 Hi Monkeynuts, We meet again!. I am struggling to view the Ancestry documents [but still trying] - so sorry if this is off course. Just a quick question - are you 100% sure any MIC, Medal Roll, Service Record and/or SWB are for the same man? And for your GF. Just a cautionary check to make sure that two identically-named men aren't getting merged ??? :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeynuts Posted 11 March , 2021 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2021 9 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: The medal card is clear that the man served overseas as he has the VM and BWM - that would fit with service abroad after 31 Dec 1915. . Craig Does it say on the medal card he served overseas or are you assuming he must have to be awarded the medals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 1 minute ago, Monkeynuts said: Does it say on the medal card he served overseas or are you assuming he must have to be awarded the medals We don't have to assume - he wouldn't have got medals if he had not served in a theatre of war. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeynuts Posted 11 March , 2021 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2021 1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said: Hi Monkeynuts, We meet again!. I am struggling to view the Ancestry documents [but still trying] - so sorry if this is off course. Just a quick question - are you 100% sure any MIC, Medal Roll, Service Record and/or SWB are for the same man? And for your GF. Just a cautionary check to make sure that two identically-named men aren't getting merged ??? :-) M Hi . Well the address matches where they lived and I have looked at every bit of info I have regarding family members etc .The big shock in all this is we all thought he had no brothers and sisters but my research is proving wrong. I tried a few year's back to get to the bottom of the story and got so frustrated gave up Glad you cleared up that point no war service overseas no medals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeynuts Posted 11 March , 2021 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2021 2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: We don't have to assume - he wouldn't have got medals if he had not served in a theatre of war. :-) M Glad you cleared up that point no war service overseas no medals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 3777 A Jackman is on medal roll Click for Medal Roll It also says he was discharged to Z Reserve on 5 Jun 1919. In other words he was not invalided out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 The Medal Roll says he served with 1/4 Dorsets and LLT has on that btn 1/4th Battalion August 1914 : in Dorchester. Part of South Western Brigade in Wessex Division. Moved to Salisbury Plain. 9 October 1914 : sailed for India, landing Bombay 10 November 1914. 23 February 1916 : landed at Basra with 42nd Indian Brigade and remained in Mesopotamia for the rest of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 1 minute ago, Monkeynuts said: no war service overseas no medals Not just no war service overseas = no medals Service overseas had to be in a theatre of war to get both BWM & VM :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeynuts Posted 11 March , 2021 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2021 (edited) So guys again it looks like maybe the rejection papers are wrong /but the address seems correct this is really doing my head in and very puzzling They cannot be his enlistment docs impossible Edited 11 March , 2021 by Monkeynuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 (edited) Using the access I have there do not appear to be any pension records at WFA/Fold3 for 3777 / 201825 Alfred James JACKMAN So if he was unfit it seemingly wasn't so bad that he felt a claim was appropriate. On transfer to Z Reserve men could put in a pension claim and still be on the Z Reserve - however not [yet?] found any sign of such. Anyone alternatively found any condition for a claim on form AF Z.22 of his? Note: the only Alfred James JACKMAN that is coming up is a MIC for 18459 R. Berkshire Regt - for a 1915 sickness discharge and SWB :-) M 12 minutes ago, Monkeynuts said: They cannot be his enlistment docs impossible Sorry if I am behind the curve - which / whose enlistment docs? :-) M Edited 11 March , 2021 by Matlock1418 clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 Near numbers (hard to find 3746, 201798 Harold Ash enlisted 30/11/15 served 4th Dorsets etc 3777, 201825 Jackman ................... 3809, 201854 Ernest Cattermole attested 22/11/15 but accepted and joined 29/2/16. 2/ 4th Bn Dorsets 3835, 201877 Alfred Harvey attested ... accepted 21/3/16. 2/4th Dorsets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Sorry if I am behind the curve - which / whose enlistment docs? Those docs OP linked in his opening post. I did question them above. It would help to have age and place of birth etc for Jackman. Given that you, Monkeynuts, have the medals we know this man was 1/4th Dorsets throughout his overseas service and that they served in Mespot 1916-18 thus will have been there when Baghdad was captured early 1917. Perhaps a look at the War Diary here (available to download free if you register) will give you an idea of what is going on. Jackman would not have gone out with the Battalion but joined perhaps later in 1916 as a reinforcement. Quite good timing as the Army, by then, was being put in better state (numbers, equipment, medical care) after a disasterous start. Charlie Edit As to those family stories: So Baghdad seems reasonable. I believe that the rest of the 42nd Indian Brigade to which the 1/4th Bn Dorsets belonged was made up of 3 Gurkha Battalions, thus the Gurkha reference. Just sad there is no surviving service record for him but that is the fate for most. Edited 11 March , 2021 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeynuts Posted 11 March , 2021 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2021 2 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Those docs OP linked in his opening post. I did question them above. It would help to have age and place of birth etc for Jackman. Given that you, Monkeynuts, have the medals we know this man was 1/4th Dorsets throughout his overseas service and that they served in Mespot 1916-18 thus will have been there when Baghdad was captured early 1917. Perhaps a look at the War Diary here (available to download free if you register) will give you an idea of what is going on. Jackman would not have gone out with the Battalion but joined perhaps later in 1916 as a reinforcement. Quite good timing as the Army, by then, was being put in better state (numbers, equipment, medical care) after a disasterous start. Charlie Alfred was born 03/11/1894 in Paddington and died Dec 1966 in Harrow .The stories I have from my father is he went to India then to Mespot and the picture sort of confirms this and I was told that because he was there he never got killed like most on the western front .As he did nothing out of the ordinary like mentioned in despatches I have no chance of proving this .The no signup docs are confusing me though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 1 minute ago, Monkeynuts said: The no signup docs are confusing me though Normal, 60percent were destroyed in WW2 bombing of the Archives. Did you note my edit footnote to last post ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeynuts Posted 11 March , 2021 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2021 1 minute ago, charlie962 said: Normal, 60percent were destroyed in WW2 bombing of the Archives. Did you note my edit footnote to last post ? yes its so sad the records were burnt But the Gurkha Ref always stuck in my mind of never breaking rank when shelled and a story how true about them clearing a machine gun nest with just knives and then returning with the heads of the gunners ( how true who knows?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 11 March , 2021 Share Posted 11 March , 2021 7 minutes ago, Monkeynuts said: Alfred was born 03/11/1894 in Paddington Which is within a month of that 1915 record! Does the adress in that 1915 record of 11,Braithwaite Close, Paddington mean anything to you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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