2 South Staffs - 6898 Pte Samuel Allen KIA - Day 1 The Battle of Loos 25 Sep 1915

[Martin Feledziak]

19 hours ago, D Barrington said:

how was it known

Good Question David.

 

I am fairly sure that the missing pages from the Battalion war diary would hold a fair amount of information. I always thought it very odd that perhaps the most important event was missing from the papers. The older I get the more cynical I become.

I don't have sufficient grasp of the details to plot Samuel's part in the events of the early hours of 25th September,  Clearly he was there, endured the nightmare, and died a very courageous man. 

I wonder if you, as next of kin, could procure some information from the museum.

https://staffordshireregimentmuseum.com/history/

P.S whenever I am in Lichfield I like to sample the wares at the Kings Head.

Edited 12 October , 2021 by Martin Feledziak

[D Barrington]

21 minutes ago, Martin Feledziak said:

Good Question David.

 

I am fairly sure that the missing pages from the Battalion war diary would hold a fair amount of information. I always thought it very odd that perhaps the most important event was missing from the papers. The older I get the more cynical I become.

I don't have sufficient grasp of the details to plot Samuel's part in the events of the early hours of 25th September,  Clearly he was there, endured the nightmare, and died a very courageous man. 

I wonder if you, as next of kin, could procure some information from the museum.

https://staffordshireregimentmuseum.com/history/

P.S whenever I am in Lichfield I like to sample the wares at the Kings Head.

Roger...I have sent them a message and the CWCG (to see what info they have about the discovery of his body in 1928. 

Will report if anything interesting comes back.

[Martin Feledziak]

1 hour ago, D Barrington said:

message

Yes please keep us updated. I did write to Lord Ashcroft a couple of years ago highlighting the possible issue of the “lost souls” on that canal bank.

 

I know he purchased Kilby’s medals and he is a keen historical investigator. He also visited the location when it was overgrown.
 

I have also updated him as to the apparent recent site clearing. 
 

 

I know it is a difficult issue but Kilby was recovered and buried with another ‘unidentified’ soldier from that original canal burial site. 

 

Edited 12 October , 2021 by Martin Feledziak

[D Barrington]

On 12/10/2021 at 18:58, Martin Feledziak said:

Yes please keep us updated. I did write to Lord Ashcroft a couple of years ago highlighting the possible issue of the “lost souls” on that canal bank.

 

I know he purchased Kilby’s medals and he is a keen historical investigator. He also visited the location when it was overgrown.
 

I have also updated him as to the apparent recent site clearing. 
 

 

I know it is a difficult issue but Kilby was recovered and buried with another ‘unidentified’ soldier from that original canal burial site. 

 

Hi Martin, 

The initial response from CWGC was unproductive as it referred me to information already available from online searching. However, I've asked if there might be anything in their 'general archives' that might relate to the finding of remains by farmers etc in that region the latter half of the 1920s. 

I suspect you have already looked at this, but I checked the burial records for the 54 2SStaffs personnel listed as killed or missing on 25 Sept 1915 and noted that 8946 Pte J Hayes and 4 other unknown S Staffs soldiers were found at 44a.A.15.d.25.80 in 1925. The date of the consolidation report is dated 29 May 1925. That brings my assumed tally of casualties for C Coy to 11.  (9 personnel recovered from the C Coy area post-war (Kilby +1, Williams, Allen, Hayes +4), plus Ptes Wykes and Dunn, who are recorded by the CWGC on the Loos Memorial as being C Coy).  Do you know if any records exist that provide a breakdown of the 2SStaffs casualties by sub-unit?

These facts started me wondering about the burials performed by the Germans and the memorial to Lts KING and HALL and 8 men erected around the 26th October. I noted in the war diary for 25th September, that OC D Company, when he came forward ready to support the attacks of A & B Coys, reported seeing Lt HALL's platoon in the German lines. Clearly another incredibly courageous action on this terrible day. This suggests to me that the details on the German memorial were accurate and correctly referred to the action that took place 'somewhere' in the brickstacks, not at the Embankment Redoubt with C Coy as some later accounts seek to suggest. I'm sure the Germans would have recorded the officers names accurately if they had the bodies. I also struggle to believe that 1 KINGS would have incorrectly reported such an unusual and important event. 

As a result, I echo your observations about the letter (written a month after the attack and a week after the cross was first seen) from the CO to Capt KILBY's family. It all feels a little too convenient, even allowing for the fog of war. My feeling is that the COs suggestion in this letter that the cross relates to KILBY and WILLIAMS is possibly an assumption drawn on the cross's location and perhaps an over-willingness to make events fit to support grieving parents. But, if this true, then why was the memorial cross erected so far north on the railway embankment?

Perhaps given the flat terrain and the cratered mess in front of the brickstacks, the answer is simple. The embankment provided slightly clearer and higher ground and therefore the cross could be seen more clearly from the British lines. As with many war memorials, the purpose of the cross does not necessarily have to mark the locations of the burials. It could (was) simply have been a chivalrous act of recognition. After all, why go to all this trouble if it cant be seen?  I also suspect if the Germans had buried KING and HALL and marked their graves with this cross, it would have been placed nearer to where they fell. For me, the fact that KING and HALL in the centre/right remain missing, when the C Coy officers on the left have been found, supports this. My feeling is these brave officers and their men lie, still to be discovered, somewhere within the area of the Brickstacks. 

Clearly, this is conjecture from someone reading it all for the first time, but what do you think? If I'm drawing the wrong conclusions, please feel free to steer me in the right direction. 

Many thanks

David

 

 

 

 

   

[Martin Feledziak]

 

Many good thoughts in your post David.

It would be nice to view a copy of the 1915 map which was used to plan

I  have copied this from Roy Evans post from 2010 

 

operation Orders for the 2nd Battalion attack;

OPERATION ORDER

By Lieut. Col. C.S. DAVIDSON C.B. COMMDG. 2ND South Stafford. Regt.

Ref. Trench Map Sheet 36.c N.W. 22 September 1915.

Frontage of Battalion.

The Battalion will attack the German trenches on the frontage ‘A’ Brickstack to LA BASSEE CANAL.

Date and time to be notified later.

Order of Companies.

‘A’, ‘B’ and ‘C’ Companies, in order from the right, will be in the front line. ‘D’ Company, in support, will move up to dugouts occupied by ‘B’ Company as soon as they are vacated.

First points of Assault.

A Coy. – ‘A’, ‘B’ & ‘C’ brickstacks, then ‘D’ & ‘E’.

B Coy. – ‘F’, ‘G’ & ‘H’ do. Then ‘K’, ‘L’, ‘M’

C Coy. – EMBANKMENT REDOUBT.

Lines of Approach.

A Coy – No. 6 and No. 7 Saps.

B Coy. – No. 16 Sap.

C Coy. – Railway Embankment.

Touch with 1/Kings Regt.

A Coy. will be responsible for maintaining touch with 1/Kings Regt. on the right, and will detail special parties for this purpose throughout the advance.

Communications.

When ‘B’ Company has made good ‘K’, ‘L’ & ‘M’ brickstacks and ‘C’ Coy. is in possession of EMBANKMENT REDOUBT, touch will be established between these two companies at point 35 (N.E. brick stack). ‘B’ Coy will also establish touch with ‘A’ Coy on the right.

Advance to 1st Objective.

After taking D & E brickstacks and getting touch with ‘B’ Coy, ‘A’ Coy. will advance keeping its right on the German trench running from A, B & C brickstacks to point 66 on the LA BASSEE road, and then along the LA BASSEE road to Railway Crossing A.22.b.3.8. When this point is reached its left will be on the German trench cutting the TRIANGLE Embankment at A.16.d.3.1.

B Copy with its left at N.E. brick stack will advance with its right on A.16.d.3.1. and its left in touch with ‘C’ Coy. until the 1st Objective of the Battalion is reached i.e. S.E. face of TRIANGLE.

‘C’ Coy. will advance to this objective with its left on the CANAL and its right in touch with ‘B’ Coy.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The below is 36C NW from NLS June 1916 - (Not the same as used to plan the attack.)

I have added rough start positions for the South Staffs Battalion.

I have also added the objectives. Again not marked on the 1916 map but are included on A44 1918 map.

The objectives were not accomplished and all units returned to their start positions BUT many a good man was lost.

 

[Martin Feledziak]

Just putting this into the boiler.

Kilby and his party were on the canal towpath and were cut down by intense fire from all angles.

They were in the area defended by company 6 IR16. 

If they were later buried then logically it would have been by a burial party from that section. "Prellbock Kompagnie".

 

so

 

It is not beyond the rhelms of possibility that a similar honour was accorded to to soldiers attacking the brick stacks objectives.

That may have been Ziegel Kompagnie.

again all conjecture.

The below graphic is from the regimental history IR16 pasted onto Google earth.

any mistakes are down to me.

 

EDIT

so if Kilby was recovered from the canal towpath then that must have been where he and his party were put to rest.

 

I think there must have been another such tribute for the others in front of the brick stacks . Opposite Zi3egel Kompagnie.

 

 

 

Edited 25 September , 2023 by Martin Feledziak
to return the missing image

[D Barrington]

43 minutes ago, Martin Feledziak said:

Just putting this into the boiler.

Kilby and his party were on the canal towpath and were cut down by intense fire from all angles.

They were in the area defended by company 6 IR16. 

If they were later buried then logically it would have been by a burial party from that section. "Prellbock Kompagnie".

 

so

 

It is not beyond the rhelms of possibility that a similar honour was accorded to to soldiers attacking the brick stacks objectives.

That may have been Ziegel Kompagnie.

again all conjecture.

The below graphic is from the regimental history IR16 pasted onto Google earth.

any mistakes are down to me.

Hi Martin

Funnily enough, I was just considering whether there were 2 memorials erected. From my limited reading, it seems there are 2 accounts that report burials by the Germans. 

One account appears in Kilby's Winchester College biography.  It states that Kilby was buried with a subaltern and 13 men. It also states that 'the CO' wrote a letter to the family stating that a cross & inscription had been erected on the tow-path below the embankment about a week earlier. It states the inscription was obscured by a wreath. (Is this the only source of this information?)

The other account is in the 2 South Staffs war diary. This says the a cross was observed before the last relief in place occurred (on c24th Oct). It states it was located near the embankment at the extreme left of the line. The diary then records the report about the inscription from 1 KINGS of on 26th, which commemorated the memory of KING, HALL and 8 men. 

So is this two reports or not?

Both the CO's letter and war diary report appear to refer to the location of the cross being in the same location. Also, while the war diary appears to link the embankment cross and the 1 KINGS report in the same entry. These two facts suggests one memorial.

However, if the letter by the CO was written a week after 'the cross' reported in the war diary was erected (c31 Oct) , it seems odd he did not know the detail of the inscription as reported on 26th?  It seems unlikely he would have reported inaccurate information to such a prestigious family. This suggests, he could have been referring to a different cross and different information about how many 2 South Staffs men were commemorated by it. 

Furthermore the entry made on 26th Oct in the war diary about the cross is a recollection of an observation from an earlier date (c24th). The report from 1 KINGS is linked to this event in hindsight. Therefore, it is possible that this linkage might not be entirely accurate. Certainly, the entry does not definitively state that 1 KINGS were talking about the cross observed on 24th, and therefore does not discount the existence of a 2nd.

So what you may ask?

If there are 2 accurate reports, it may help us draw a better understanding of the fates of the casualties incurred by the Battalion on 25th Sept. My feeling is any evidence that helps to reduce the number of individuals who simply 'disappeared' without any trace on that day is good news.  If we assume there were 2 burials and two reports and we also assume the burials of the 1 officer and 10 men from 2 South Staffs buried by CWGC in 1920/21 in other cemeteries were previously known, that accounts for the remains of 5 officers and 31 men.  This leaves only 18 remains unaccounted for 'in any way'. 

With all your experience in this field, what are your conclusions? One or two crosses representing one or two burials? Your note above appears to lean towards the latter?

Many thanks for your continued engagement and advice.

Best wishes

David

[D Barrington]

On 04/10/2021 at 20:38, Martin Feledziak said:

Hi David.

 

This is a subject I have pondered over for a few years. There are so many questions I have too.

You may find the topic for Captain Kilby of interest to you as he is at rest with Samuel. They were both killed on the same day.

see the bottom of this data sheet.

Best wishes Martin from South Staffs.

 

 

Here is the link to the post. Ignore the fist couple of items as they are just a preamble. BUT the rest should be good for you .

 

 

Hi Martin

I was reading through the Kilby information you sent me and found the Youtube clip by Lord Ashcroft rather interesting. At about 5 minutes in, he describes the letter sent by Mrs Kilby to General Menze in Dec 15.  

The video states that the Army had written to her, stating a Private soldier from the Battalion, who was in hospital in London, had reported Capt Kilby possibly being taken prisoner.

The video also shows almost the full wording of the original letter (but not quite), which I have studied as best I can and it includes some additional information about the morning of 25 Sep 15 that is quite interesting.

Firstly, she names the source of the account as 'Private LLoyd'. Secondly, she says that Private Lloyd states that he knows he saw Kilby and Williams on the embankment.  He also says he saw Kilby wounded in the leg and Lt Williams in the head. He adds that once dusk fell, 'Baird?' (it looks like) returned to the trenches to get help for Williams. However, when he returned, both of the officers had disappeared. 

This adds a little more detail, but I wondered if you are aware of any more information from these letters and what conclusions (if any) were drawn from them?

Many thanks

David

 

 

 

[Martin Feledziak]

You can see why I want to get Lord Ashcroft on side. 
 

He bought up kilby’s medals and went to the canal side to make that video. He is a keen historian and I believe he  could turn some cogs to survey for our lost souls.

I could only really suggest that any new search would concentrate on the area where Kilby was found. The brick stacks site is just too vast.

 

 

[JWK]

On 17/10/2021 at 13:21, D Barrington said:

One account appears in Kilby's Winchester College biography.

I have some doubts about this Winchester College biography:

From  https://www.winchestercollegeatwar.com/RollofHonour.aspx?RecID=283&TableName=ta_wwifactfile

Attempts over several nights failed to locate his body, but he was in fact buried by the enemy, together with one of his subalterns and thirteen men.   His Commanding Officer wrote to Kilby's father: 'A cross which the Germans have erected on the tow-path just below the embankment redoubt...... has a big wreath of flowers, which partly obscures the inscription, but I am afraid there can be no doubt that it is meant for your son and Williams, who was also missing.  About a week ago the Germans erected a big cross between brick stacks and the Canal, inscribed: 'For King and Fatherland - Lieut. Kilby and Lieut. Hall, who died like heroes'. It is very gratifying to know that even our enemies recognise the superb heroism of that attack. If ever men died like heroes, they did'. The German regimental commander, whose position he had assaulted, also wrote in high appreciation of his valour.

The grave was eventually lost and Kilby's body was not found again until February 1929.  He was re-buried in the Arras Road Cemetery, Roclincourt.

 

Capt. Kilby had been a Captain since 1910, according to that same Winchester biography? The 2/SS war-diary mentions a cross (as per info received from 1/King's) bearing the names of "Lieut. King (nót Kilby) and Lieut. Hall and 8 men (not 13)". Why did his Commanding officer write a letter to Kilby's family, saying that the cross mentioned Lieut. Kilby etc.?

The "war-diary" of German IR16 (published long after the war, in 1927, in a "story-telling format") does not mention any cross(es) erected by either the "Prellbock Kompanie" ("Railway-buffer Company". At the canal towpath) or the "Siegel Kompanie" ("Brick Company", stationed facing the "brickstacks")

1/Kings' war-diary does not report any sighting of a cross (at least not that I could find).

2/SS war-diary does not mention "a big wreath of flowers, which partly obscures the inscription", only mentions "a white cross" and the (part) inscription as relayed by 1/King's. Where did his Commanding Officer get this information about the wreath?

 

@Martin Feledziak refers to this Youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12qwa0mDS9Y

At 5.03 there's this screenshot:

 

were on the Embankment, that

[our?] son was wounded in the leg,

that Lieut. Williams was wounded

in the head & that Baird went

back at dusk to get help to move

Lieut. Williams & that when he

returned to the spot he had

disappeared. So that it seems

quite likely that the rest of

Private Lloyd’s information,

namely that he saw our son

taken prisoner & Lieut. Williams

too is correct also. Pray [that?] it

may prove so & that this may

help you in the kind search

you are making & for which we

cannot thank you sufficiently.

 

PS: Those letters, from that german General, were sent to Surinamestraat 19, The Hague, the Dutch intermediary for the Kilby family. A rather posh area of The Hague. My Great-aunt and her husband lived just around the corner (at Paramaribostraat 7, about 100 metres away). Surely they must have known "Mrs van de Wetering"!

 

Edited 19 October , 2021 by JWK

[D Barrington]

12 hours ago, Martin Feledziak said:

You can see why I want to get Lord Ashcroft on side. 
 

He bought up Kilby’s medals and went to the canal side to make that video. He is a keen historian and I believe he  could turn some cogs to survey for our lost souls.

I could only really suggest that any new search would concentrate on the area where Kilby was found. The brick stacks site is just too vast.

 

 

Martin

Agreed. I will follow your example and contact Lord Ashcroft as well. Maybe another approach will prompt some reaction?

Thanks

David

11 hours ago, JWK said:

I have some doubts about this Winchester College biography:

From  https://www.winchestercollegeatwar.com/RollofHonour.aspx?RecID=283&TableName=ta_wwifactfile

Attempts over several nights failed to locate his body, but he was in fact buried by the enemy, together with one of his subalterns and thirteen men.   His Commanding Officer wrote to Kilby's father: 'A cross which the Germans have erected on the tow-path just below the embankment redoubt...... has a big wreath of flowers, which partly obscures the inscription, but I am afraid there can be no doubt that it is meant for your son and Williams, who was also missing.  About a week ago the Germans erected a big cross between brick stacks and the Canal, inscribed: 'For King and Fatherland - Lieut. Kilby and Lieut. Hall, who died like heroes'. It is very gratifying to know that even our enemies recognise the superb heroism of that attack. If ever men died like heroes, they did'. The German regimental commander, whose position he had assaulted, also wrote in high appreciation of his valour.

The grave was eventually lost and Kilby's body was not found again until February 1929.  He was re-buried in the Arras Road Cemetery, Roclincourt.

 

Capt. Kilby had been a Captain since 1910, according to that same Winchester biography? The 2/SS war-diary mentions a cross (as per info received from 1/King's) bearing the names of "Lieut. King (nót Kilby) and Lieut. Hall and 8 men (not 13)". Why did his Commanding officer write a letter to Kilby's family, saying that the cross mentioned Lieut. Kilby etc.?

The "war-diary" of German IR16 (published long after the war, in 1927, in a "story-telling format") does not mention any cross(es) erected by either the "Prellbock Kompanie" ("Railway-buffer Company". At the canal towpath) or the "Siegel Kompanie" ("Brick Company", stationed facing the "brickstacks")

1/Kings' war-diary does not report any sighting of a cross (at least not that I could find).

2/SS war-diary does not mention "a big wreath of flowers, which partly obscures the inscription", only mentions "a white cross" and the (part) inscription as relayed by 1/King's. Where did his Commanding Officer get this information about the wreath?

 

@Martin Feledziak refers to this Youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12qwa0mDS9Y

At 5.03 there's this screenshot:

 

were on the Embankment, that

[our?] son was wounded in the leg,

that Lieut. Williams was wounded

in the head & that Baird went

back at dusk to get help to move

Lieut. Williams & that when he

returned to the spot he had

disappeared. So that it seems

quite likely that the rest of

Private Lloyd’s information,

namely that he saw our son

taken prisoner & Lieut. Williams

too is correct also. Pray [that?] it

may prove so & that this may

help you in the kind search

you are making & for which we

cannot thank you sufficiently.

 

PS: Those letters, from that german General, were sent to Surinamestraat 19, The Hague, the Dutch intermediary for the Kilby family. A rather posh area of The Hague. My Great-aunt and her husband lived just around the corner (at Paramaribostraat 7, about 100 metres away). Surely they must have known "Mrs van de Wetering"!

 

 

[D Barrington]

11 hours ago, JWK said:

I have some doubts about this Winchester College biography:

From  https://www.winchestercollegeatwar.com/RollofHonour.aspx?RecID=283&TableName=ta_wwifactfile

Attempts over several nights failed to locate his body, but he was in fact buried by the enemy, together with one of his subalterns and thirteen men.   His Commanding Officer wrote to Kilby's father: 'A cross which the Germans have erected on the tow-path just below the embankment redoubt...... has a big wreath of flowers, which partly obscures the inscription, but I am afraid there can be no doubt that it is meant for your son and Williams, who was also missing.  About a week ago the Germans erected a big cross between brick stacks and the Canal, inscribed: 'For King and Fatherland - Lieut. Kilby and Lieut. Hall, who died like heroes'. It is very gratifying to know that even our enemies recognise the superb heroism of that attack. If ever men died like heroes, they did'. The German regimental commander, whose position he had assaulted, also wrote in high appreciation of his valour.

The grave was eventually lost and Kilby's body was not found again until February 1929.  He was re-buried in the Arras Road Cemetery, Roclincourt.

 

Capt. Kilby had been a Captain since 1910, according to that same Winchester biography? The 2/SS war-diary mentions a cross (as per info received from 1/King's) bearing the names of "Lieut. King (nót Kilby) and Lieut. Hall and 8 men (not 13)". Why did his Commanding officer write a letter to Kilby's family, saying that the cross mentioned Lieut. Kilby etc.?

The "war-diary" of German IR16 (published long after the war, in 1927, in a "story-telling format") does not mention any cross(es) erected by either the "Prellbock Kompanie" ("Railway-buffer Company". At the canal towpath) or the "Siegel Kompanie" ("Brick Company", stationed facing the "brickstacks")

1/Kings' war-diary does not report any sighting of a cross (at least not that I could find).

2/SS war-diary does not mention "a big wreath of flowers, which partly obscures the inscription", only mentions "a white cross" and the (part) inscription as relayed by 1/King's. Where did his Commanding Officer get this information about the wreath?

 

@Martin Feledziak refers to this Youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12qwa0mDS9Y

At 5.03 there's this screenshot:

 

were on the Embankment, that

[our?] son was wounded in the leg,

that Lieut. Williams was wounded

in the head & that Baird went

back at dusk to get help to move

Lieut. Williams & that when he

returned to the spot he had

disappeared. So that it seems

quite likely that the rest of

Private Lloyd’s information,

namely that he saw our son

taken prisoner & Lieut. Williams

too is correct also. Pray [that?] it

may prove so & that this may

help you in the kind search

you are making & for which we

cannot thank you sufficiently.

 

PS: Those letters, from that german General, were sent to Surinamestraat 19, The Hague, the Dutch intermediary for the Kilby family. A rather posh area of The Hague. My Great-aunt and her husband lived just around the corner (at Paramaribostraat 7, about 100 metres away). Surely they must have known "Mrs van de Wetering"!

 

Hi JWK

Thank you so much. While I dearly want the report that Capt Kilby and his team where buried with respect by the defenders of the Prellbock to be true, I'm struggling with it. Although I do not have anywhere near the level of knowledge that you and Martin have, I find myself tending to agree with your observations about the Winchester biography.

For me, the German accounts of that day through the Fritz Limbach letters read with a degree of credibility that is missing (just my feeling) in many of the British records. However, even accepting the passage of time, there appears to be little evidence to support the details in the CO's letter, even applying the best interpretation of the most vague and generic facts available. It is also true that wartime events, especially in times of defeat or great cost, were recorded in a way that helped to ease the loss, with details from all sorts of sources (whether accurate or not) becoming hard facts over time. May be this has happened in this case too - I suspect we will never know for sure. 

However, I feel that the account of of Pte's LLoyd's and Baird's actions in Mrs Kilby's letter is accurate. The details align fairly well with the events of the day overall.  I wonder whether there are any similar accounts of the day hidden away deep in other family letters or Regimental records  (p.s. I note Baird went back after dusk to get help for Williams, although the wounding probably occurred before 0800hrs. I wonder if LLoyd and Baird remained concealed on the battlefield all day until they could retreat under darkness. Also, the war diary states that the British wounded collection parties did not go out until after 1030pm - so there was potentially a 12+ hour gap until Williams et al might have been recovered. Plenty of time for 'things' to have happened).

I also agree with you about the lack of supporting evidence as to the 'crosses' being erected. However, I'm not surprised that such actions were not widely recorded in official sources. My feeling is the Army leadership either would not approved of such actions or at least not wanted them advertised.  While I would like to think that even in those terrible times, where armies were gassing each other, a degree of respect and humanity between the individual combatants still existed. That said, given the events of the time, it does seem rather exceptional that after all the attacks from both sides (gas, mines, artillery, grenades, machine guns, etc) that took place between 25 Sept and the 25 Oct 1915 in this sector, the Germans defenders who had survived in the Prellbock would have had time to make and erect memorials to the enemy; especially ones recalling a specific attack by named individuals a month earlier.   

That said, my reading of the Limbach letters gives me an impression of a very close knit unit, comprised of caring and compassionate officers and men, who felt the loss of their comrades keenly. I have no doubt that they were of the calibre to recognise fallen foes. In your Limbach records, there are photos of his grave alongside those of several other comrades. These graves are all marked with distinctive white crosses. If there was a cross, I wonder if this was the same style as the one reported as seen by the British from their trenches.

For me there is a ring of truth in the South Staffs war diary account about a cross being erected. The account is clearly written in hindsight, almost as a 'p.s.' to the day's entries. The facts and wording etc seems to fit and it doesn't feel staged - although that doesn't make it accurate. On balance, I'm minded to think that the 'KING & HALL' event did occur. A small glimmer of humanity in the overwhelming darkness of the time.

Many thanks

David

[Martin Feledziak]

4 hours ago, D Barrington said:

another approach

Yes a good idea. As you are family and closely linked to Samuel who was in the middle of this terrible historical catastrophe. 
 

 

[JWK]

In that "Winchester biography" it is stated :

Quote

Captain A.F.G. Kilby, on the night of September 5th-6th, went out along the canal towpath under cover of darkness, accompanied by a Lieutenant of the 1st King’s, and closely reconnoitred the German position on the Embankment Redoubt, and brought back most useful information.

Fritz Limbach writes about an encounter with "them English" in early September. Letter nr 79 of 9th September 1915:

Quote

Not much news from here. Tommy still behaves well, because mother likes to hear that.

By the way they now reply when you call them. We call “Tommy” and they reply with “Fritz”, but also “Saupreusse” [Prussian swines] and the like. There are a few amongst them who speak very good German.

Last night the following conversation:

-Tommy!

-Hallo Fritz, haben Sie gut geschlafen? (Very gentleman-like of them to address us with "Sie” [= you, formal] where we barbarians just address them with “Du” [= you, informal] without even thinking about it)

-Thank you Tommy, very well. You speak excellent German, where did you learn that?

-I learned it in Germany.

-Where have you been in Germany?

-Cologne, Berlin and Oberammergau in Bavaria.

-Well Tommy, come over here, then we’ll go to Cologne together to get a glass of beer.

-Yes, but then you’ll start to shoot! But the German beer is excellent.

I called two others over in English, and they got really close. They wanted to get some cigarettes. They would of course have gotten them, those little pointy ones [=bullets], if only I could have seen where those brothers were. I find that really impertinent.

Would that have been an eye-witness report of that "early September 1915" recce?

Fritz's previous letter (nr 78 of 6th September)  is mainly about the photos he took. So maybe he inserted the events of that particular night in his next letter?

 

 

 

Edited 20 October , 2021 by JWK

[Martin Feledziak]

22 hours ago, D Barrington said:

degree of credibility

I also hope that these events are all connected. I think it took me a while to bring JWK along my thought path. There is still much confusion in the German accounts as to when Fritz was killed. From memory there was a different date on his Douvrin cross. a day out as I remember.

I will have to have a look back in the various threads.

[Martin Feledziak]

Some of the photographs have dropped off the thread BUT his stone at Lens gives his death as 26th September 1915.

 

 

 

I did notice this very useful map overlay still works.

if you click the blue link it should open the 36C NW trench map overlaid onto a Bing Satellite image.

once opened the handy transparency slider in the bottom corner is very effective.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=50.52147&lon=2.76892&layers=101464735&b=4

Edited 20 October , 2021 by Martin Feledziak

[D Barrington]

Here's an interesting side snippet to the tale of 2 South Staffs on 25 Sep 15.

This is a picture of 4 South Staffs - apparently published in the Staffordshire Advertiser on Saturday 21 November 1914

On it are 4 officers who were serving with the 2nd Battalion on 25 Sep 15 and are mentioned in the accounts of the day - A de Hamel (C Coy), TPW Evans (D Coy) DM Williams (C Coy/MG Sect?), B Hall (A/B Coy?)

[D Barrington]

2 hours ago, Martin Feledziak said:

Some of the photographs have dropped off the thread BUT his stone at Lens gives his death as 26th September 1915.

 

 

 

I did notice this very useful map overlay still works.

if you click the blue link it should open the 36C NW trench map overlaid onto a Bing Satellite image.

once opened the handy transparency slider in the bottom corner is very effective.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=50.52147&lon=2.76892&layers=101464735&b=4

Hi Martin

Have you ever done any research into the location of the remains of Pte Hayes + 4 n/k South Staffs soldiers in 1925 at 15.d.25.80?  It looks like its over the other side of the canal in 5th Bde territory?

Thanks

David

[Martin Feledziak]

On 20/10/2021 at 15:02, D Barrington said:

15.d.25.80?

Yes that does put the location on the other side of the canal . I am sure that is wrong. 

You would think that they would have used a current map when recovering the soldiers.
 

but I have not yet seen a 1915 copy of the map which I have already seen wrong locations which do not tally with the op order.

 

Edited 27 September , 2023 by Martin Feledziak

[Martin Feledziak]

Bringing this back up do I can re- read

[Martin Feledziak]

I have copied this over from the Fritz LIMBACH thread.

With the anniversary of the start of the battle of Loos  here is a little slice from a Panorama which shows where Captain KILBY and his party were sure to have advanced. This could also be where Samuel ALLEN came to grief too.

I have added a red arrow which is below the railway embankment and between the embankment and the edge of the canal. Their task was to take the "Railway Redoubt" strong-point, left part of the arrow, which was being defended by German IR16 and Fritz LIMBACH.

The mission failed and many were killed including Most, if not all, of Kilby's raiding party and at least 9 defenders on top of the embankment including LIMBACH.

 

 

[deutscherinfanteriest]

Are those wooden stakes or screw pickets ?

[Martin Feledziak]

Hi Deutscherinfanteriest.

Nice to hear from you.

I have to say I do not know. The front line did not change very much during the war. I would imagine well rooted.