2 South Staffs - 6898 Pte Samuel Allen KIA - Day 1 The Battle of Loos 25 Sep 1915

[D Barrington]

I am researching my G-G-father 6898 Pte Samuel Allen of the 2 Bn South Staffs Regt KIA 25 Sep 1915 and am looking for some further information to fill in some of the gaps. I hope someone out there will be able to help.

My questions are as follows:

a.  Regular or Reservist?   His Service number suggests he enlisted in 1903. He enlisted at Whittington Barracks Lichfield. This fits as he would have just turned 18 and his death announcement in the local paper says he had served 12 years in the 'Reserve' and was immediately called up for the BEF embarking for France in Aug 1914. However, the 2Bn was a Regular Unit and I can find no reference to his service in any S Staffs reserve units. On the 1911 census he was working as a motorcycle mechanic, which suggests he was not a Regular. However, aged 30 and still a Pte in 1915 when he died, also suggests a rather sluggish career for a regular. Can anyone help confirm his possible military career path?

b.  Bn Roll of Honour.  The Bn War Diary is missing its entries for  25/26 Sep 1915 day, but other sources report the Bn suffered 19 ORs killed and 79 missing on the 25th.  Is there a roll of honour for these casualties, as I would expect my GGF to appear in them?

c.  Burial.  My GGF is buried in the Arras Road Cemetry. It seems from records his body was consolidated here in c.1928/29.  Records show his body was previous buried at 44a.A.15.d.90.45. (44a was 36C map c1915 that was renamed later in the war). Mapping these coordinates against the trench maps of the time suggest his remains were located at the N end of the 2 Staffs Line of Attack on 25th, just short of the Canal and Railway NE of Cuinchy.  The trench maps and front lines don't change much from 1915-1918. His remains were identified from the ID disc on the body - not removed as should have been the practise in 1915.  My feeling is that this burial (if it was) was informal/hasty and actually his body may not have been recovered until after the war when the Loos battlefield was cleared  (the trench map 44a is a 1918 reference). That seemed to be fairly common in the battle of Loos, with many missing soldiers. How can I tell if my feeling is right or not? 

I hope all this is reasonably clear. I hope someone out there may be able to shed a little more light on the past. Many thanks in advance.

 

Edited 30 September , 2021 by D Barrington
Finger problems

[clk]

Hi D Barrington,

Welcome to the forum.

15 minutes ago, D Barrington said:

I am researching my G-G-father 6898 Pte Samuel Allen of the 2 Bn South Staffs Regt and am looking for some further information to fill in some of the gaps. I hope someone out there will be able to help.

My questions are as follows:

a.

...???

You can use the three dots, top right hand side of your original post, to edit it and include what you wanted to ask.

Regards
Chris

 

Edited 30 September , 2021 by clk

[Michelle Young]

He must have been a very late discovery, as I see he has a panel listing for Dud Corner too. I wonder if his name is on there as well?  I guess his remains must have been discovered during farming or building works, not by a graves registration unit. 
Unfortunately, haven’t got time today to get to Dud Corner to check. 
Michelle 

[Keith_history_buff]

11 hours ago, D Barrington said:

I am researching my G-G-father 6898 Pte Samuel Allen of the 2 Bn South Staffs Regt KIA 25 Sep 1915 and am looking for some further information to fill in some of the gaps. I hope someone out there will be able to help.

My questions are as follows:

a.  Regular or Reservist?   His Service number suggests he enlisted in 1903. He enlisted at Whittington Barracks Lichfield. This fits as he would have just turned 18 and his death announcement in the local paper says he had served 12 years in the 'Reserve' and was immediately called up for the BEF embarking for France in Aug 1914. However, the 2Bn was a Regular Unit and I can find no reference to his service in any S Staffs reserve units. On the 1911 census he was working as a motorcycle mechanic, which suggests he was not a Regular. However, aged 30 and still a Pte in 1915 when he died, also suggests a rather sluggish career for a regular. Can anyone help confirm his possible military career path?

 

Hello,

In more recent times, there is a simple view of the modern British Army, in binary terms. You enlist and you are a regular, on full time active service. Otherwise, you join the TA, you attend training at the drill hall and the annual military camp where you go on manoeuvres.

It seems unlikely that he was engaged under Territorial Force terms of reference.

If he had enlisted in 1903 under Regular terms of service, he would have signed up for 3 years Active Service with the colours and the remaining 9 years to be spent in the Army Reserve. (This was stipulated by Army Order 117 of 1902.)

If he had joined the militia, and had continued to serve in its successor, the Special Reserve from 1908 onwards. it is highly likely that he would have been sent among the drafts of reinforcements that were sent to F&F from September 1914 onwards.

Within the regiment, there were likely to be three sets of service number. Service numbers were not unique, so you could have the following in the same regiment
6789 Tommy Atkins - serving under TF terms

6789 Nobby Clark - serving under Regular terms

6789 Chalky White - serving under Special Reserve terms

Unless you know whether he enlisted under Regular or Special Reserve terms, you won't know when he enlisted, based upon service number.

This is what Paul Nixon has found for those who enlisted under Regular terms of service.
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/search/label/South Staffordshire Regiment

The go-to resource is always longlongtrail when it comes to information on the British Army of WW1
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/

It sounds plausible to me that he enlisted under Regular terms of service and was approaching 12 years of service when he died. 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

I went to the following website, which recycles data from the CWGC, and in the search bar I typed 25/09/1915
https://astreetnearyou.org/regiment/223/South-Staffordshire-Regiment

I saw 190 fatalities of the regiment for that day.

If you go to the CWGC website, you can perform searches. You can save the list of search results as a *.csv file which you can open in Microsoft Excel.

[AndyJohnson]

He is commemorated on the Wolverhampton Higher Grade School Memorial, see Doug Lewis's fine site: http://www.wolverhamptonwarmemorials.org.uk/index.php?page=wolverhampton-higher

Sadly that Memorial has been lost over time (per Doug)

Andy

The log book of the Higher Grade School is held by Wolverhampton Archives, and the following post from WolverhamptonsWar Blog suggests that there is a fair amount of detail from WW1. Heidi Mcintosh at the Archives might have alook for you, they are generally very helpful: 

https://wolverhamptonswar.wordpress.com/2014/05/02/higher-grade-school/

Edited 1 October , 2021 by AndyJohnson

[Keith_history_buff]

13 hours ago, D Barrington said:

his death announcement in the local paper says he had served 12 years in the 'Reserve' and was immediately called up for the BEF embarking for France in Aug 1914.

Are you able to post a copy of the announcement in the local paper on here, please? Seeing an original source document, rather than reading of its existence, is more helpful when doing research on a soldier.

Cheers
Keith

[AndyJohnson]

Hi

I did a double-check on the 2/SS War Diary for 25 Sept 1915, and indeed the National Archives & Ancestry have the page missing. I wondered if they had written a special report for 25 Sept and mis-filed it, but checking through to end of 1915 there is no sign. In fact the next page after the missing page is a continuation of a prior page as it starts mid-sentence, so indeed a page is 'lost' - or somehwere else in the 2/SS War Diary and mis-filed. 

My interest is Tipton, and of the 54 men of the 2/SS killed on the 25th Sept, 3 are Tipton men. The following gives a brief overview of the day for 2/SS on the 25th: https://www.tiptonremembers.net/index.php/wood-arthur-george

I've attached a spreadsheet of the 54 2/SS men killed that day. Amongst them was Capt Arthur Kilby, VC.

Andytry Brigade: 2 Battalion South Staffordshir

2SS 25 Sept 1915 Surname Seq.csv

Edited 1 October , 2021 by AndyJohnson

[D Barrington]

11 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

He must have been a very late discovery, as I see he has a panel listing for Dud Corner too. I wonder if his name is on there as well?  I guess his remains must have been discovered during farming or building works, not by a graves registration unit. 
Unfortunately, haven’t got time today to get to Dud Corner to check. 
Michelle 

Hi Michelle, 

Many thanks for your response. Something else I noted on his grave record states was his 'original' grave site was not marked by a cross - which perhaps also suggests it was not a 'recognised' grave?

I think I've checked the Loos Memorial casualty list from the CWGC website - it appears there are 39 2 SOUTH STAFFS listed on 25 Sep 15.  My GGF is not one of them. Where can I find the panel listing for Dud Corner? Is this a different list?  I note the Loos memorial was unveiled in 1930, so his death was already known by then - indeed it was announced in the local paper on 21 Oct 1915. What reason could there be for him to be omitted from the memorial?

Thanks again 

David

[D Barrington]

7 hours ago, AndyJohnson said:

Hi

I did a double-check on the 2/SS War Diary for 25 Sept 1915, and indeed the National Archives & Ancestry have the page missing. I wondered if they had written a special report for 25 Sept and mis-filed it, but checking through to end of 1915 there is no sign. In fact the next page after the missing page is a continuation of a prior page as it starts mid-sentence, so indeed a page is 'lost' - or somehwere else in the 2/SS War Diary and mis-filed. 

My interest is Tipton, and of the 54 men of the 2/SS killed on the 25th Sept, 3 are Tipton men. The following gives a brief overview of the day for 2/SS on the 25th: https://www.tiptonremembers.net/index.php/wood-arthur-george

I've attached a spreadsheet of the 54 2/SS men killed that day. Amongst them was Capt Arthur Kilby, VC.

Andytry Brigade: 2 Battalion South Staffordshir

2SS 25 Sept 1915 Surname Seq.csv 9.52 kB · 2 downloads

Hi Andy, 

Many thanks for your response. My GGF was a Wolverhampton man. I'm gutted the War Diary for those two days is missing.  I'm sure you will have read this already, but Doug Lewis kindly sent me the following information which fills in some of the gaps about that first day. It must have been horrific. 

Thanks

David

Battle of Loos.pdf

[D Barrington]

8 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Are you able to post a copy of the announcement in the local paper on here, please? Seeing an original source document, rather than reading of its existence, is more helpful when doing research on a soldier.

Cheers
Keith

Hi Keith, 

Sure. The paper is the Express and Star and the announcement was made 21 Oct 15. It seems a bit weird that his death was so quickly reported, yet it seems his burial may have been delayed and he has been omitted from the Loos Memorial. I'm getting the feeling he has 'slipped through the net' at some point. The surviving records about him have lots of manuscript amendments, which appear to suggest some 'catching up' about specific details happened later.

The Express and Star were brilliant when I chased up his case with them. - they have a great archive.  Also Doug Lewis provided great background, having collated all the WW1 announcements in 2007ish.

Many thanks 

David

 

 

 

 

Express and Star 21 Oct 1915.pdf

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi David, 

Thanks for taking the time to share this.
 

Quote

Being on the reserve (he had served 12 years) he was called up as soon as war was declared, and figured in many engagements.

Based on this wording, it makes sense that he had served 3 years with the colours, and that in his eleventh year of his service, being in the Army Reserve Class B he would have been mobilised (my spelling).

The 1914 Star roll records that he disembarked on 12 August 1914. He would have been part of the original battalion to initially deploy, and this would have been solely those who had enlisted under Regular terms of service. (My research had Special Reserve rank and file arriving as reinforcements from mid-September onwards, for the infantry battalion I researched.)

Your GGF was now obliged to serve 12 + 1 years of service, but he died 12 years after he enlisted. Clause 11 (Prolongation) within the Army Enlistment Act is of interest on the following thread:

Hope this is of interest.

Keith

[D Barrington]

10 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Hello,

In more recent times, there is a simple view of the modern British Army, in binary terms. You enlist and you are a regular, on full time active service. Otherwise, you join the TA, you attend training at the drill hall and the annual military camp where you go on manoeuvres.

It seems unlikely that he was engaged under Territorial Force terms of reference.

If he had enlisted in 1903 under Regular terms of service, he would have signed up for 3 years Active Service with the colours and the remaining 9 years to be spent in the Army Reserve. (This was stipulated by Army Order 117 of 1902.)

If he had joined the militia, and had continued to serve in its successor, the Special Reserve from 1908 onwards. it is highly likely that he would have been sent among the drafts of reinforcements that were sent to F&F from September 1914 onwards.

Within the regiment, there were likely to be three sets of service number. Service numbers were not unique, so you could have the following in the same regiment
6789 Tommy Atkins - serving under TF terms

6789 Nobby Clark - serving under Regular terms

6789 Chalky White - serving under Special Reserve terms

Unless you know whether he enlisted under Regular or Special Reserve terms, you won't know when he enlisted, based upon service number.

This is what Paul Nixon has found for those who enlisted under Regular terms of service.
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/search/label/South Staffordshire Regiment

The go-to resource is always longlongtrail when it comes to information on the British Army of WW1
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/

It sounds plausible to me that he enlisted under Regular terms of service and was approaching 12 years of service when he died. 

 

Hi Keith, 

I agree with you. I used Paul Nixon's reference to check his number. Indeed, checking with my other GGF's records he also enlisted in 1902 as a Regular and did 3 years followed by 9 reserve too. 

If its any help, the last picture of my GGF shows him wearing a LCPL stripe and what I think are 2 x good conduct chevrons on his left arm. This confirms he did at least 6 years and I suspect he probably earned his 3rd at 12 years, but the war over-took events and it was never awarded. The LCpl has never been formally confirmed from my research, I suspect it may have been 'in the field' and never confirmed. All records say Private, except the memorial in St Luke's Church Blakenhall which says LCpl.

Another interesting snippet is that he worked at the Star Engineering Company in Wolverhampton (1911 census).  Their company war records appear to omit him, but they record a number of other employees serving in the Reserves prior to WW1 and being called up. I suspect he was also one of these and it was fairly 'normal' form at that time.

Many thanks

David

 

 

 

 

 

 

[D Barrington]

6 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Hi David, 

Thanks for taking the time to share this.
 

Based on this wording, it makes sense that he had served 3 years with the colours, and that in his eleventh year of his service, being in the Army Reserve Class B he would have been mobilised (my spelling).

The 1914 Star roll records that he disembarked on 12 August 1914. He would have been part of the original battalion to initially deploy, and this would have been solely those who had enlisted under Regular terms of service. (My research had Special Reserve rank and file arriving as reinforcements from mid-September onwards, for the infantry battalion I researched.)

Your GGF was now obliged to serve 12 + 1 years of service, but he died 12 years after he enlisted. Clause 11 (Prolongation) within the Army Enlistment Act is of interest on the following thread:

Hope this is of interest.

Keith

Hi Keith, 

Yes its all making sense. My other GGF was like the individual in the example above, being discharged after completing his engagement. Assuming dates of enlistment, it seems Samuel Allen might have made it home in April 1916, had circumstances been different. 

It is interesting to see that the Army honoured the end of these engagements, even during those very difficult times. Discharging such experienced men in those early war years must have been quite a loss.

Many thanks

David

 

[D Barrington]

10 hours ago, AndyJohnson said:

He is commemorated on the Wolverhampton Higher Grade School Memorial, see Doug Lewis's fine site: http://www.wolverhamptonwarmemorials.org.uk/index.php?page=wolverhampton-higher

Sadly that Memorial has been lost over time (per Doug)

Andy

The log book of the Higher Grade School is held by Wolverhampton Archives, and the following post from WolverhamptonsWar Blog suggests that there is a fair amount of detail from WW1. Heidi Mcintosh at the Archives might have alook for you, they are generally very helpful: 

https://wolverhamptonswar.wordpress.com/2014/05/02/higher-grade-school/

Hi Andy

Many thanks.  Yes, I'd spotted Doug's Higher Grade School entry online. Interestingly, my GGF is also recorded on a lovely memorial in St Luke's Church at Blakenhall. Here he is referred to as LCpl. I understand that this church is also due to close soon, but it is listed.

I will certainly follow up on your recommendations.

Best wishes

David

 

 

[D Barrington]

13 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

He must have been a very late discovery, as I see he has a panel listing for Dud Corner too. I wonder if his name is on there as well?  I guess his remains must have been discovered during farming or building works, not by a graves registration unit. 
Unfortunately, haven’t got time today to get to Dud Corner to check. 
Michelle 

Hi Michelle, 

A follow up to my earlier response, which I've done some more checking on.  I think I'm in a bit better place to make ask/make some rather more informed comments as a result.

Having checked the CWGC website, I have now seen the 'Loos Memorial Panel List' for stone 74b which includes S Allen. This is dated 23 Jun 1928. Am I right that the Loos Memorial records the names of the fallen who did not have a known grave site?  When I did a check on the spreadsheet of the names currently recorded in the cemetery, I couldnt find his name. That seems sensible - there should only be one location for his grave, even if the Memorial still has his name on it. 

What is now interesting is the dates of the War Memorial being 23 Jun 1928 and the Grave consolidation report being 23 July 1929. Can we deduce his body was recovered between these dates???

Many thanks

Davifd

[AndyJohnson]

Hi David

As you thought, the Loos Memorial records those who have no known grave. The memorial is on the walls at the back and sides of Dud Corner Cemetery. The names of the South Staffs missing are recorded on Panels 73 to 76, Samuel is on Panel 74B.

 

The ‘Concentration of Graves Exhumation & Burials’ BURIAL RETURN for Samuel shows an Office stamp dated 9^th July 1928 – this would the date when the Arras CWGC Office was handling this document. Samuel Allen would have been exhumed from his battlefield burial location at the Brickstacks near Cuinchy very near to that date – certainly in July 1928 I would think. The process of exhumation and re-burial was done pretty rapidly as you would not want the exhumed remains “in storage” for any length of time.

 

You said earlier that your thought that he may have 'slipped through the net' at some time. I don’t think that is the case.

He was killed 25^th September, that would have been recorded at Roll Call pretty much the next day when his comrades would be asked if anyone had any knowledge of his fate. It looks like he was buried/lost pretty much on the British front line, near the canal at the Brickstacks.

His Pension Card shows a Date of Notification (to Pensions) of 15th October 1915. His wife got a pension of 18/6d per week from April 1916 – Separation Allowance would have continued until then.

The Loos Memorial list for Panel (74B) was typed 23rd June 1928 and his name was on the list – and I am pretty sure that his name will still be carved on Panel 74B. I think it is coincidental that his remains were being exhumed at around the same time. The only strange thing is that the Panel 74B typed list has a red ‘X’ against his name, so they knew something was different – the only question is did they know in time to stop the stonemason carving his name – only a physical visit will prove this! My guess is that his name will be on the Loos Memorial. A good excuse for a visit.

Once the CWGC admin caught up, his name would be removed from the master file for the Loos Memorial, and added to that for Arras Road. There would be no amendment to his name on the memorial as that would make a mess of the panel if names were removed. When/if Panel 74B is replaced, then his name will be omitted as he has not been ‘lost’ since 1928. This is why any search on Loos Memorial will not find his name, even though he may be there in stone.

There are many similar examples – I mentioned Kilby VC of 2/SS killed same day – I know a few years ago his name was on the Loos Memorial, and he too had been exhumed and re-buried in Arras Road – in his case in 1929. Similarly, Kipling’s son, John Kipling is on the Loos Memorial but since accepted as buried in St. Marys ADS.

Regards

Andy

Edited 2 October , 2021 by AndyJohnson

[D Barrington]

8 hours ago, AndyJohnson said:

Hi David

As you thought, the Loos Memorial records those who have no known grave. The memorial is on the walls at the back and sides of Dud Corner Cemetery. The names of the South Staffs missing are recorded on Panels 73 to 76, Samuel is on Panel 74B.

 

The ‘Concentration of Graves Exhumation & Burials’ BURIAL RETURN for Samuel shows an Office stamp dated 9^th July 1928 – this would the date when the Arras CWGC Office was handling this document. Samuel Allen would have been exhumed from his battlefield burial location at the Brickstacks near Cuinchy very near to that date – certainly in July 1928 I would think. The process of exhumation and re-burial was done pretty rapidly as you would not want the exhumed remains “in storage” for any length of time.

 

You said earlier that your thought that he may have 'slipped through the net' at some time. I don’t think that is the case.

He was killed 25^th September, that would have been recorded at Roll Call pretty much the next day when his comrades would be asked if anyone had any knowledge of his fate. It looks like he was buried/lost pretty much on the British front line, near the canal at the Brickstacks.

His Pension Card shows a Date of Notification (to Pensions) of 15th October 1915. His wife got a pension of 18/6d per week from April 1916 – Separation Allowance would have continued until then.

The Loos Memorial list for Panel (74B) was typed 23rd June 1928 and his name was on the list – and I am pretty sure that his name will still be carved on Panel 74B. I think it is coincidental that his remains were being exhumed at around the same time. The only strange thing is that the Panel 74B typed list has a red ‘X’ against his name, so they knew something was different – the only question is did they know in time to stop the stonemason carving his name – only a physical visit will prove this! My guess is that his name will be on the Loos Memorial. A good excuse for a visit.

Once the CWGC admin caught up, his name would be removed from the master file for the Loos Memorial, and added to that for Arras Road. There would be no amendment to his name on the memorial as that would make a mess of the panel if names were removed. When/if Panel 74B is replaced, then his name will be omitted as he has not been ‘lost’ since 1928. This is why any search on Loos Memorial will not find his name, even though he may be there in stone.

There are many similar examples – I mentioned Kilby VC of 2/SS killed same day – I know a few years ago his name was on the Loos Memorial, and he too had been exhumed and re-buried in Arras Road – in his case in 1929. Similarly, Kipling’s son, John Kipling is on the Loos Memorial but since accepted as buried in St. Marys ADS.

Regards

Andy

Thanks Andy, hugely informative.  The pieces are coming together nicely. I'm glad my GGF is in such illustrious company.

Each answer prompts new questions. I have 2 follow-ups, if I may so bold....

I'm now interested in understanding whether the family knew in 1915 whether his body was buried or missing? Given that the announcement of death was made in his local paper less than a month after his death, this suggests the notification process from the Front to family was working well and that he was confirmed as KIA not MIA. Therefore, it seems the circumstances of his death at the time were accurately recorded (as best as they could in 1915). In these pre-CWGC days, I understand field burial (if possible) was in theatre, often ad hoc and hasty. I assume the family would have received the standard death notification telegram, would there have been any information passed to them about the burial or lack of?

My second question follows on from the above and relates to the exhumation. There's no anecdotal evidence from the family about a later discovery, which I'd have expected to have been quite an emotional moment and have remained in their memory. I'm assuming that the CWGC would have some sort of records from the late 20s when they were notified of the body's discovery. I'm also assuming that they then would have notified the family of the event and of the move of the remains to Arras Road.  It could also have sparked some local media attention at the time? Where might such records exist? Would it be worth contacting the CWGC? 

Many thanks

David

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AndyJohnson]

Hi David

Excellent questions, if that doesn’t sound patronising.

I think there is no doubt that it was known immediately that Samuel had been killed, even if the location of his body was not. At the subsequent Roll Call, when there was no reply to his name the NCO would ask if anyone knew about Samuel. A comrade must have said that he had seen him killed or dead. If no-one had known his fate then he would have been posted as missing – this could mean still injured out on the battlefield, wounded and in the Casualty Clearing system, dead and un-noticed on the battlefield, or prisoner of war. It could take 6 months for his death to be officially accepted, allowing for all these possibilities to unwind.

The casualty list would be created and passed back through the Adjutant-General’s Department (I think) back at Base. A bureaucratic process then took over to collate the information, and inform next of kin etc. Dr Alison Hine’s magisterial book “Refilling Haig’s Armies: the replacement of British Infantry Casualties on the Western Front” gives the process in microscopic detail. A hard read, but the final word on that topic.

At that stage, all his family would have received is the standard telegram of his death, not of burial, or lack of. Detail would follow later. The process is explained in detail on Chris Baker’s superb site Long Long Trail at: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/what-happened-to-a-soldier-who-died/

 

Regarding his exhumation. By 1928 the battlefield clearance exercise was over, but thousands of bodies were still being found. The Army had said that their clearance task was complete in 1921, but that just meant the process was handed to the IWGC. I think that we can be pretty sure that Samuel’s body was found just by chance – farmers were a frequent source, in fact I think they were given a 2 franc ‘reward’ for reporting a body.

“28,036 bodies were found between 1921 and 1928 (with 25% identification), and approximately a further 10,000 up to 1937.” Peter Hodgkinson, Clearing the Dead article, see: http://www.vlib.us/wwi/resources/clearingthedead.html

I have seen documents informing families of exhumation, but I cannot remember where / when I saw that. So I have no doubt that the IWGC would have tried to inform the families, but in 1928 if a family had moved it was harder to trace them than in today’s connected world.

 

I’ve no idea where in the world you are, but on (appropriately) 11th November 2021 Peter Hodgkinson is presenting his talk “Clearing the Dead” at Heart of England branch of the WFA, at the Warwick Arms in Warwick. Peter is a retired Clinical Psychologist who has researched on ‘resilience and coping’ culminating in his book “Glum Heroes”. I hope to be there. See: https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/branches/united-kingdom/heart-of-england/events/uncovering-the-dead-by-peter-hodgkinson/

 

I think that it is well worth contacting the CWGC. I think they are a great organisation, and in my experience they are very willing to help. I know not everyone agrees with that view!

Regards

Andy

 

It is unlikely you will ever know for certain, but given the loaction of Samuel's body on the left of the 2/SS front near the canal, I think that he may have been 'C' Company as they were on the left of the 2/SS line. This was KIlby's Company.

Edited 2 October , 2021 by AndyJohnson

[clk]

Hi David,

On 30/09/2021 at 21:41, D Barrington said:

The Bn War Diary is missing its entries for  25/26 Sep 1915

As a 'filler' the Brigade HQ diary seems to be quite good. Part one of this download contains a fairly lengthy description of the events on the 25th in the main body of the diary. As appendices there is also a 'Report on Operations' (commencing p42/112 of the download) for that date, together with a couple of things I noticed specifically from the 2/South Staffs relating to gas. In the diary it shows the initial casualty return as:

Image sourced from the National Archives

Looking at the medal rolls for men from the 2nd Bn who disembarked on the same date as Samuel, the nearest 'near number' man I saw with surviving papers was 6901 Williams. I'm not sure if there are reasonable inferences to be made.

Image sourced from Findmypast

Regards
Chris

Edited 2 October , 2021 by clk

[AndyJohnson]

Hi David

I don't know of you have a 'decent' photo of your g g/f, but in an idle moment I picked up the Express & Star article and extracted his image and did a bit of playing. The first one is straight forward with blur/sharpen, contrast etc, but on the second I did a bit more "interpretation". You'll like it or hate it, if you hate it let me know and it will disappear for ever.

I knew that Cobden Street rang a bell with me. In the 1901 Census, no 46 was the home of the Carter family, eldest son William Henry (Harry) wasn't there as he was in South Africa with the South Staffs. In August 1914 he was a Sgt with 2/SS, by Sept 1915 a Lt with 2/SS, and by July 1917 Lt Col of 7/SS. Awarded MC & Bar, DSO & Bar, 4xMID. One of my real WW1 heroes and a pretty unknown Wolverhampton hero. Carter Road in Wolverhampton was renamed in his honour in 1918, well it had been Bismarck Street so it was time for a change! I'm currently working on a presentation for Wolverhampton WFA on Carter winning the Bar to his MC at Vimy in May 1916 using some original papers from his late daughter, Betty. Small world!

 

Andy

[D Barrington]

3 hours ago, AndyJohnson said:

Hi David

Excellent questions, if that doesn’t sound patronising.

I think there is no doubt that it was known immediately that Samuel had been killed, even if the location of his body was not. At the subsequent Roll Call, when there was no reply to his name the NCO would ask if anyone knew about Samuel. A comrade must have said that he had seen him killed or dead. If no-one had known his fate then he would have been posted as missing – this could mean still injured out on the battlefield, wounded and in the Casualty Clearing system, dead and un-noticed on the battlefield, or prisoner of war. It could take 6 months for his death to be officially accepted, allowing for all these possibilities to unwind.

The casualty list would be created and passed back through the Adjutant-General’s Department (I think) back at Base. A bureaucratic process then took over to collate the information, and inform next of kin etc. Dr Alison Hine’s magisterial book “Refilling Haig’s Armies: the replacement of British Infantry Casualties on the Western Front” gives the process in microscopic detail. A hard read, but the final word on that topic.

At that stage, all his family would have received is the standard telegram of his death, not of burial, or lack of. Detail would follow later. The process is explained in detail on Chris Baker’s superb site Long Long Trail at: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/what-happened-to-a-soldier-who-died/

 

Regarding his exhumation. By 1928 the battlefield clearance exercise was over, but thousands of bodies were still being found. The Army had said that their clearance task was complete in 1921, but that just meant the process was handed to the IWGC. I think that we can be pretty sure that Samuel’s body was found just by chance – farmers were a frequent source, in fact I think they were given a 2 franc ‘reward’ for reporting a body.

“28,036 bodies were found between 1921 and 1928 (with 25% identification), and approximately a further 10,000 up to 1937.” Peter Hodgkinson, Clearing the Dead article, see: http://www.vlib.us/wwi/resources/clearingthedead.html

I have seen documents informing families of exhumation, but I cannot remember where / when I saw that. So I have no doubt that the IWGC would have tried to inform the families, but in 1928 if a family had moved it was harder to trace them than in today’s connected world.

 

I’ve no idea where in the world you are, but on (appropriately) 11th November 2021 Peter Hodgkinson is presenting his talk “Clearing the Dead” at Heart of England branch of the WFA, at the Warwick Arms in Warwick. Peter is a retired Clinical Psychologist who has researched on ‘resilience and coping’ culminating in his book “Glum Heroes”. I hope to be there. See: https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/branches/united-kingdom/heart-of-england/events/uncovering-the-dead-by-peter-hodgkinson/

 

I think that it is well worth contacting the CWGC. I think they are a great organisation, and in my experience they are very willing to help. I know not everyone agrees with that view!

Regards

Andy

 

It is unlikely you will ever know for certain, but given the loaction of Samuel's body on the left of the 2/SS front near the canal, I think that he may have been 'C' Company as they were on the left of the 2/SS line. This was KIlby's Company.

Andy, 

Again many many thanks.  Your information is great. Given the numbers of dead and the problems highlighted in the references you provided, I think we've been very lucky that there's as much information about my GGF as there is.

I'm really beginning to get a good picture of the terrible events of that day. I did a quick check of where Kilby's body was found in 1929 and its only about 250m further east along the canal towpath from my GGF. It seems to support your suggestion that my GGF was in C Coy.  I'm thinking the series of events may have gone something like...

At 0630 C Coy attack down the towpath of the canal and railway line, led by Capt Kilby. My GGF and others following him, struggling through the gas blowing back from our own bombardment. The German resistance from the brickstacks and redoubts then cuts through the advancing troops, with my GGF and many others becoming casualties. Capt Kilby and a few others force their way forward until halted by german grenades. The attack falters and the few remaining troops return back to their lines, leaving the bodies of the dead to be lost in no-man's land while the battle moves backwards and forward for the next 3 years. 

Cheers

David

 

[AndyJohnson]

A pretty fair summary I would say. The 6th Bde Diary provided by clk above is an absolute treasure trove if you want to dig really deep. I've stored that away for another day!

Thanks clk.

Andy

[D Barrington]

1 hour ago, AndyJohnson said:

A pretty fair summary I would say. The 6th Bde Diary provided by clk above is an absolute treasure trove if you want to dig really deep. I've stored that away for another day!

Thanks clk.

Andy

Yes, its great and I will pull as many S South Staffs references out as I can. I'm intending to write all my findings about Samuel for family posterity with all the references. 

Having done some time on an Army staff myself, the detail of the OpOs and the Div Fire Plan are a fascinating read. 

Cheers

David

 

 

[clk]

Hi David,

I haven't looked at them, but depending on how much more context you would like, it might also be worth downloading the diaries for:

2 Division Headquarters (General Staff)
2 Division Headquarters (Adjutant and Quarter-Master General)
Commander Royal Artillery  2 Division
Commander Royal Engineers 2 Division
Any unit specifically identified as being responsible for the gas attack
Assistant Director Medical Services 2 Division

The National Archives search page is here

Regards
Chris

 

Edited 2 October , 2021 by clk