Seeking help identifying MM (& VC?) recipient Kings Liverpool Regiment Sergeant from photo

[Triumph2000]

Hi all, these two photos are among many I’ve inherited from my Great Grandad, Sergeant 57606 Laurence W. Waring, 18th Battalion, Kings Liverpool Regiment. The chap on the left, with the moustache, is him. I’m trying to identify his pal, shown here on the right:

 

 

It seems the two men were photographed in the very same chair, so I guess both photos would have been taken during the same ‘sitting’. 

The reverse of both cards confirms they were taken in France (‘Carte Postale’):

 

 

I’ve searched for the name of what I hoped would be the publisher/photographer (in bottom left) but gather that’s likely the manufacturer of the paper on which they’re printed, i.e. sadly no clues there. But Laurence was only in France and Belgium for about seven months with 18KLR – he went out 30th December 1916 and was wounded at Ypres 31st July 1917. My assumption is therefore that the photos would have been taken between those dates. Perhaps in Tournehem in July ’17, if this earlier thread is anything to go by, but it may be impossible to tell.

 

Anyway, back to the point! The unidentified soldier is a Sergeant who appears to be in possession of an MM ribbon, which helps to narrow things down nicely. I am assuming he’s also 18KLR, but can’t rule out the possibility of this not being the case. With no cap badges available here, can anyone make out the shoulder title (of either man) or any other distinguishing features?

 

Working on the assumption our MM recipient Sergeant is indeed 18KLR (and that he was not awarded it prior to obtaining that rank), there would appear to be just five potential candidates:

 

Sgt 16883 Samuel E Williams (also awarded the DCM, 3rd September 1918)
Sgt 21865 William James Bennett (KIA 9th April 1917 near Arras)
Sgt 22822 George Robb
Sgt 19410 Robert Hogarth
Sgt 23789 Norman Hibbs

 

For what it’s worth, Samuel E Williams might be the mystery ‘Sammy’ who signed that name on the postcard in my earlier thread, mentioned above. It would be serendipitous if so.

 

William James Bennett’s photo and a short bio appears on the excellent Liverpool Pals website. The two photos bear a resemblance, I think – but would appreciate any other opinions on this – here are the two side-by-side:

 

 

Am I on the right track so far? Can anyone suggest further avenues here, or see something I might be missing, please?

 

Many thanks for any help or advice.

Ben

Edited 5 February , 2021 by Triumph2000
Added '(& VC?)' to subject

[BillyH]

Now I know nothing, but  . . . . .  that other medal ribbon next to the MM can't really be what I am thinking it is, can it?

 

BillyH.

Edited 5 February , 2021 by BillyH

[Triumph2000]

15 minutes ago, BillyH said:

Now I know nothing, but  . . . . .  that other medal ribbon next to the MM can't really be what I am thinking it is, can it?

 

BillyH.

Help me out here 😀 In my inexperience I have assumed it was a ‘blank’ on which the MM is mounted? Just a guess. 

Edited 5 February , 2021 by Triumph2000

[FROGSMILE]

It does have the appearance and position of a VC.

[Triumph2000]

12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It does have the appearance and position of a VC.

 

Yikes. That does put rather a different spin on things!

 

Great Grandad went back out to France in mid 1918, this time with the Labour Corps, working in a clerical capacity in the large POW camp at Abbeville. Therefore these photos might have been taken between then and his demob in June 1919 - if so the MM (VC?) man might be in the Labour Corps too.

[BillyH]

18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It does have the appearance and position of a VC.

 

That's exactly what I was thinking, but could it be a DCM? I am not sure whether the 2 colours of the DCM ribbon would both look the same on the films of the day.

 

BillyH.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Triumph2000 said:

 

Yikes. That does put rather a different spin on things!

 

Great Grandad went back out to France in mid 1918, this time with the Labour Corps, working in a clerical capacity in the large POW camp at Abbeville. Therefore these photos might have been taken between then and his demob in June 1919 - if so the MM (VC?) man might be in the Labour Corps too.

Possibly, I did notice that the shoulder titles they wear appear very short.

[RNCVR]

1 minute ago, BillyH said:

 

That's exactly what I was thinking, but could it be a DCM? I am not sure whether the 2 colours of the DCM ribbon would both look the same on the films of the day.

 

BillyH.

 

Exactly what I was thinking, red & blue of DCM be very close on ortho film.

Did the miniature VC emblem come into use in 1918?

[58 Div Mule]

Is there a patch on the upper right sleeve of the unknown Sgt?

 

58 DM

[FROGSMILE]

30 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

Exactly what I was thinking, red & blue of DCM be very close on ortho film.

Did the miniature VC emblem come into use in 1918?

I think that the shade differences would still be apparent Bryan, but see photos below for comparison.

 

29 minutes ago, 58 Div Mule said:

Is there a patch on the upper right sleeve of the unknown Sgt?

 

58 DM

 

I don’t think so, it’s too irregular in shape and the stitched edges would usually be apparent.

 

Edited 5 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Chesterboy]

The unknown Serjeant is not William James Bennett as his award of the Military Medal appeared in the London Gazette on the 26th April 1917.  
 

he was killed in action on the 9th April 1917

[derekb]

Could Colourising the photo help?

[Triumph2000]

In case it helps (it probably doesn't!), here's a closeup of the original scan I took:

 

[RaySearching]

28 minutes ago, Chesterboy said:

The unknown Serjeant is not William James Bennett as his award of the Military Medal appeared in the London Gazette on the 26th April 1917.  
 

he was killed in action on the 9th April 1917

 

 

Chesterboy

It could take up to three months or longer between action and gazette but that gets longer as the war progressed.

so the above assumption is incorrect 

 

 

 

 

 

[Triumph2000]

37 minutes ago, Chesterboy said:

The unknown Serjeant is not William James Bennett as his award of the Military Medal appeared in the London Gazette on the 26th April 1917.  
 

he was killed in action on the 9th April 1917

 

Well spotted, thank you. I'll rule him out.

 

Just now, RaySearching said:

 

 

Chesterboy

It could take up to three months or longer between action and gazette but that gets longer as the war progressed.

so the above assumption is incorrect 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...and back in again :-D 

 

 

Edited 5 February , 2021 by Triumph2000

[RaySearching]

1 minute ago, Triumph2000 said:

Well spotted, thank you. I'll rule him out.

Rule him back in

[Chesterboy]

The 18th Battalion War Diary '

 

26th March 1917 Awarded the Miliary Medal for gallantry in action (in the raid on the 15th inst) 21865 Sgt W J Bennett and 16562 Pte R Alty 

 

21865 Sgt William James Bennett won the Military Medal with the 18th Battalion 

 

330866 Sgt W J Bennett won the DCM with the 9th Battalion.  

 

but the not the other medal 

[RNCVR]

1 hour ago, Triumph2000 said:

In case it helps (it probably doesn't!), here's a closeup of the original scan I took:

 

 

 

I dont think it might be the DCM as there would be some kind of demarcation lines between the two colours even with ortho film.

Appears to be a solid colour to me.

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

 

I dont think it might be the DCM as there would be some kind of demarcation lines between the two colours even with ortho film.

Appears to be a solid colour to me.

You asked a good question about the miniature VC to go on and distinguish the ribbon.  Apparently it was introduced in 1917.  I’m not sure how that chimes with the sergeant’s photo above.

[RNCVR]

I thought of the miniature VC emblem & thought it might assist in ID'ing the soldier, but perhaps not, just a thought.....

 

[Ivor Anderson]

7 hours ago, Triumph2000 said:

Sgt 16883 Samuel E Williams (also awarded the DCM, 3rd September 1918)
Sgt 21865 William James Bennett (KIA 9th April 1917 near Arras)
Sgt 22822 George Robb
Sgt 19410 Robert Hogarth
Sgt 23789 Norman Hibbs

 

As your GF was in France from 30th December 1916 and was wounded at Ypres 31st July 1917, then the LG date of most of these MM rules them out:

(unless some later served with him in the Labour Corps) According to Peter Warrington over 40 VC winners also won a single MM.

Williams LG 16-11-1916 (DCM 03-09-1918)

Bennett LG 26-04-1917 (KIA 09-04-1917) He could have received his MM ribbon before his death, but he did not get a DCM/VC.

Robb     EG 18-02-1920 

Hogarth LG 09-04-1918

Hibbs     LG 20-10-1919

 

N.B. Samuel Williams did not serve with the Labour Corps (medal roll off Ancestry) and his DCM was awarded Sept 1918:

Edited 5 February , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Triumph2000]

9 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

 

As your GF was in France from 30th December 1916 and was wounded at Ypres 31st July 1917, then the LG date of most of these MM rules them out:

(unless some later served with him in the Labour Corps) According to Peter Warrington over 40 VC winners also won a single MM.

Williams LG 16-11-1916 (DCM 03-09-1918)

Bennett LG 26-04-1917 (KIA 09-04-1917) He could have received his MM ribbon before his death, but he did not get a DCM/VC.

Robb     EG 18-02-1920 

Hogarth LG 09-04-1918

Hibbs     LG 20-10-1919

 

N.B. Samuel Williams did not serve with the Labour Corps (medal roll off Ancestry) and his DCM was awarded Sept 1918:

 

Good info, thank you. I'll search out a list of those 40+ men awarded a VC and a single MM...you never know, a name might jump out.

 

In my original post I think I had been a little optimistic about the search results I'd obtained from Ancestry. The five men I listed as being 18th Battalion Sergeants awarded the MM are indeed those whose names appear using those search terms - but I've realised there are several men for whom Ancestry does not list a battalion. Therefore this morning I've searched again and noted all those for whom this is the case. I recognise a handful of these men as 18KLR, through either their number or name having come up in earlier research. The full list (i.e. most of which are probably not 18KLR, though some are) is as follows:

 

 

The two I've highlighted in bold (Percy Welborn and Lionel F Mason) are men who were certainly known to my Great Grandad - they are men whose signatures appear on another postcard of his which is in my possession. 

 

I may have a busy weekend ahead ruling out the above men...

 

 

[BillyH]

It it is any small help then you can rule out William Fitton, he was Liverpool Scottish (10th Bn.)

I also have good photos of him and it is not him.

 

BillyH.

[Triumph2000]

7 hours ago, BillyH said:

It it is any small help then you can rule out William Fitton, he was Liverpool Scottish (10th Bn.)

I also have good photos of him and it is not him.

 

BillyH.

 

Thanks, it all helps!

 

Looking through the number ranges in the massive list, I reckon at first glance that perhaps only four of those are 18KLR:

 

 

As a stroke of luck I've located a good photo of Scarth, and he's definitely not the man I'm trying to identify. Another ruled out. 

 

I may be barking up the wrong tree with the KLR, anyway - could be Labour Corps, and/or the MM might have been awarded before he became a Sergeant, in which case his name might not appear on this thread yet. Trying to work out how to further narrow down the search.

 

So is the general consensus that the chap in the original IS likely wearing a VC ribbon?

[Triumph2000]

Also, I tried as best I could to line up a known KLR shoulder title (from the photo of Scarth I mentioned above), on left, and that of the unknown Sergeant. The 'correct' one clearly shows KINGS in a curve, whereas the other doesn't seem to look like that. Is it recognisable to anyone? Labour Corps perhaps? I'm quite prepared to stop looking at KLR men if so.

 

 

Meanwhile my Great Grandad's (from the OP) is very difficult to see well, but I could be persuaded his is at least curved too:

 

 

This could help steer my search in the right direction, perhaps. Any opinions, please?

 

Much appreciated.