Seeking help identifying MM (& VC?) recipient Kings Liverpool Regiment Sergeant from photo

[Milner]

The two men are wearing different belts in the photographs. Not sure anything can be deduced from this, just an observation.

 

[Ken Lees]

A man awarded any kind of gallantry medal would be a good candidate for promotion afterwards. So, I think focussing on Sergeants awarded the MM is likely to be a red herring.

 

Mention was made upthread, of Sgt W.J. Bennett DCM, of the 9th Bn. I have his medal, but sadly, no photo of him.

 

Ken

[Triumph2000]

36 minutes ago, Ken Lees said:

A man awarded any kind of gallantry medal would be a good candidate for promotion afterwards. So, I think focussing on Sergeants awarded the MM is likely to be a red herring.

 

Mention was made upthread, of Sgt W.J. Bennett DCM, of the 9th Bn. I have his medal, but sadly, no photo of him.

 

Ken

 

Hi Ken, I believe the Sgt W. J. Bennett earlier in this thread was of the 18th Battalion, and no DCM for this one(?). Would be great if it were the same man, though [EDIT: Sorry, I see both were mentioned] - the 18th man's photo appears here: https://www.liverpoolpals.com/soldier/?i=182/21865-Sgt-william-james--bennett (mm) and I thought he bears a resemblance to the chap I'm trying to identify.

 

Also, I'll expand my search to ranks below that of Sergeant. In it for the long haul, I think!

 

Many thanks.

Edited 7 February , 2021 by Triumph2000

[Ken Lees]

On 05/02/2021 at 16:14, Triumph2000 said:

Hi all, these two photos are among many I’ve inherited from my Great Grandad, Sergeant 57606 Laurence W. Waring, 18th Battalion, Kings Liverpool Regiment. The chap on the left, with the moustache, is him. I’m trying to identify his pal, shown here on the right:

 

 

It seems the two men were photographed in the very same chair, so I guess both photos would have been taken during the same ‘sitting’. 

The reverse of both cards confirms they were taken in France (‘Carte Postale’):

 

 

I’ve searched for the name of what I hoped would be the publisher/photographer (in bottom left) but gather that’s likely the manufacturer of the paper on which they’re printed, i.e. sadly no clues there. But Laurence was only in France and Belgium for about seven months with 18KLR – he went out 30th December 1916 and was wounded at Ypres 31st July 1917. My assumption is therefore that the photos would have been taken between those dates. Perhaps in Tournehem in July ’17, if this earlier thread is anything to go by, but it may be impossible to tell.

 

Anyway, back to the point! The unidentified soldier is a Sergeant who appears to be in possession of an MM ribbon, which helps to narrow things down nicely. I am assuming he’s also 18KLR, but can’t rule out the possibility of this not being the case. With no cap badges available here, can anyone make out the shoulder title (of either man) or any other distinguishing features?

 

Working on the assumption our MM recipient Sergeant is indeed 18KLR (and that he was not awarded it prior to obtaining that rank), there would appear to be just five potential candidates:

 

Sgt 16883 Samuel E Williams (also awarded the DCM, 3rd September 1918)
Sgt 21865 William James Bennett (KIA 9th April 1917 near Arras)
Sgt 22822 George Robb
Sgt 19410 Robert Hogarth
Sgt 23789 Norman Hibbs

 

For what it’s worth, Samuel E Williams might be the mystery ‘Sammy’ who signed that name on the postcard in my earlier thread, mentioned above. It would be serendipitous if so.

 

William James Bennett’s photo and a short bio appears on the excellent Liverpool Pals website. The two photos bear a resemblance, I think – but would appreciate any other opinions on this – here are the two side-by-side:

 

 

Am I on the right track so far? Can anyone suggest further avenues here, or see something I might be missing, please?

 

Many thanks for any help or advice.

Ben

 

I don't think these two are the same man. The brow looks different and the right ear looks different, too

[Ken Lees]

On 06/02/2021 at 17:52, Triumph2000 said:

Also, I tried as best I could to line up a known KLR shoulder title (from the photo of Scarth I mentioned above), on left, and that of the unknown Sergeant. The 'correct' one clearly shows KINGS in a curve, whereas the other doesn't seem to look like that. Is it recognisable to anyone? Labour Corps perhaps? I'm quite prepared to stop looking at KLR men if so.

 

 

Meanwhile my Great Grandad's (from the OP) is very difficult to see well, but I could be persuaded his is at least curved too:

 

 

This could help steer my search in the right direction, perhaps. Any opinions, please?

 

Much appreciated.

 

I don't think either of those men are wearing King's shoulder titles. More likely to be the 'LC' of the Labour Corps

[TullochArd]

On 06/02/2021 at 17:52, Triumph2000 said:

Also, I tried as best I could to line up a known KLR shoulder title (from the photo of Scarth I mentioned above), on left, and that of the unknown Sergeant. The 'correct' one clearly shows KINGS in a curve, whereas the other doesn't seem to look like that. Is it recognisable to anyone? Labour Corps perhaps? I'm quite prepared to stop looking at KLR men if so.

 

....... I recall the 18th Battalion didn't wear the "KING'S" shoulder title at the time of your Laurence's initial deployment.  I believe it was the 2nd City Battalion shoulder title at this time.  If  so there's no way it fits the profile in the photo.

 

(Addendum 10.02.21: I am wrong.  After 1916, the Regular pattern curved shoulder title "KINGS" was worn exclusively.)

 

 

Edited 10 February , 2021 by TullochArd

[ChrisMurphy]

On 05/02/2021 at 16:14, Triumph2000 said:

Hi all, these two photos are among many I’ve inherited from my Great Grandad, Sergeant 57606 Laurence W. Waring, 18th Battalion, Kings Liverpool Regiment. The chap on the left, with the moustache, is him. I’m trying to identify his pal, shown here on the right:

 

 

It seems the two men were photographed in the very same chair, so I guess both photos would have been taken during the same ‘sitting’. 

The reverse of both cards confirms they were taken in France (‘Carte Postale’):

 

 

I’ve searched for the name of what I hoped would be the publisher/photographer (in bottom left) but gather that’s likely the manufacturer of the paper on which they’re printed, i.e. sadly no clues there. But Laurence was only in France and Belgium for about seven months with 18KLR – he went out 30th December 1916 and was wounded at Ypres 31st July 1917. My assumption is therefore that the photos would have been taken between those dates. Perhaps in Tournehem in July ’17, if this earlier thread is anything to go by, but it may be impossible to tell.

 

Anyway, back to the point! The unidentified soldier is a Sergeant who appears to be in possession of an MM ribbon, which helps to narrow things down nicely. I am assuming he’s also 18KLR, but can’t rule out the possibility of this not being the case. With no cap badges available here, can anyone make out the shoulder title (of either man) or any other distinguishing features?

 

Working on the assumption our MM recipient Sergeant is indeed 18KLR (and that he was not awarded it prior to obtaining that rank), there would appear to be just five potential candidates:

 

Sgt 16883 Samuel E Williams (also awarded the DCM, 3rd September 1918)
Sgt 21865 William James Bennett (KIA 9th April 1917 near Arras)
Sgt 22822 George Robb
Sgt 19410 Robert Hogarth
Sgt 23789 Norman Hibbs

 

For what it’s worth, Samuel E Williams might be the mystery ‘Sammy’ who signed that name on the postcard in my earlier thread, mentioned above. It would be serendipitous if so.

 

William James Bennett’s photo and a short bio appears on the excellent Liverpool Pals website. The two photos bear a resemblance, I think – but would appreciate any other opinions on this – here are the two side-by-side:

 

 

Am I on the right track so far? Can anyone suggest further avenues here, or see something I might be missing, please?

 

Many thanks for any help or advice.

Ben

Hi, I am the great Grandson of the George Robb 22822 you mention

• George Robb (MM) Service No 22822 Born in Aberdeen, later of Willesden Middlesex, Served in 18th & 20th Kings Liverpool Regiment, Awarded the Military Medal for bravery and escaping Munster III PoW camp in Westphalia Germany. Wounded & Survived the great war.

I will dig through my grandma's old photos and see if it looks like him.

Will update if I can find anything 

 

All the best

Chris

[Triumph2000]

9 minutes ago, ChrisMurphy said:

Hi, I am the great Grandson of the George Robb 22822 you mention

• George Robb (MM) Service No 22822 Born in Aberdeen, later of Willesden Middlesex, Served in 18th & 20th Kings Liverpool Regiment, Awarded the Military Medal for bravery and escaping Munster III PoW camp in Westphalia Germany. Wounded & Survived the great war.

I will dig through my grandma's old photos and see if it looks like him.

Will update if I can find anything 

 

All the best

Chris

Hi Chris 

Thanks, here’s hoping! Either way, it’d be good to be able to rule him in or out. 

Thanks again

Ben

[Ivor Anderson]

 This volume has details of all 628 WW1 VC winners, with photos of most of them:

If you are on Ancestry, this may help: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60997/?keyword=victoria+cross&priority=united-kingdom

Edited 3 April , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[ChrisMurphy]

On 02/04/2023 at 23:15, Triumph2000 said:

Hi Chris 

Thanks, here’s hoping! Either way, it’d be good to be able to rule him in or out. 

Thanks again

Ben

Hi Ben,

I only found a photo of George Robb much later in life so it's difficult to be sure, but it doesn't really look like they are the same person. 

Regards

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

On 06/02/2021 at 17:52, Triumph2000 said:

Also, I tried as best I could to line up a known KLR shoulder title (from the photo of Scarth I mentioned above), on left, and that of the unknown Sergeant. The 'correct' one clearly shows KINGS in a curve, whereas the other doesn't seem to look like that. Is it recognisable to anyone? Labour Corps perhaps? I'm quite prepared to stop looking at KLR men if so.

 

 

Meanwhile my Great Grandad's (from the OP) is very difficult to see well, but I could be persuaded his is at least curved too:

 

 

This could help steer my search in the right direction, perhaps. Any opinions, please?

 

Much appreciated.

I lost track of this thread after making some of the earlier comments, but looking at it again now, with the close ups of the shoulder titles of both men, I’d happily wager in this case that the right hand sergeant with the P08 web waistbelt is wearing a 3-letter title from a fusilier regiment, but without the usual separate grenade.  The letters are too small to be the Labour Corps and the last letter looks like an ‘F’.  There are only a limited range of straight, 3-letter titles, most are fusiliers plus a few rifles regiments, but the absence of black buttons makes the latter less likely.  I welcome other views and opinions.

Edited 6 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

Yes, I'd  say that it's definitely a straight rather than a curved title, which would rule out the King's Liverpool,

While the individual letters aren't clear, there do appear to be three of them - which would rule out the two-letter Labour Corps quite apart from size 

The last letter isn't clear, it could be an F but I wouldn't get excited just yet

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, 6RRF said:

Yes, I'd  say that it's definitely a straight rather than a curved title, which would rule out the King's Liverpool,

While the individual letters aren't clear, there do appear to be three of them - which would rule out the two-letter Labour Corps quite apart from size 

The last letter isn't clear, it could be an F but I wouldn't get excited just yet

It can only be an R or an F.  I am far from excited…