Photo help

[Diana14]

Hi all, looking for some help in relation to the photo. After the passing of my mother, I found a lot of old photos. This one is not named, and I am trying to put a face to a name and learn more about him. He could be a Fisher, from Buchlyvie Scotland. He has medals and a sword. Can anyone help me piece this research together? Any information is much appreciated. Thanks in advance. 

[FROGSMILE]

He is from the Highland Light Infantry.  He is wearing full dress review order uniform and appears to be a Major.  The medal is not immediately familiar but looks like a commemorative, such as a Coronation or Jubilee.  He is dressed in the style of a 2nd Battalion officer, who wore their swords complete with basket hilts (the 1st Battalion excluded the basket and just showed the cross guard), as well as a slightly different arrangement for affixing their brooch, shoulder plaid, and cap lines (seen around the neck).  In the images below you can compare this.  Notice how one has the plaid’s free end hanging forwards and the other thrown backwards over the shoulder to the rear.

 

NB.  The battalion dress differentials were intended to reflect the linear forebears of each, the 71st (Highland (LI)) and 74th (Highland) Regiments.

 

 

Edited 30 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[charlie2]

He looks to be wearing the 1911 Dehli Durbar medal or Coronation medal.

 

Charlie

Edited 30 November , 2020 by charlie2

[Diana14]

Would this lead figure be related to the same regiment? I know it's badly painted, my mother must have repainted when she was a child!!

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, Diana14 said:

Would this lead figure be related to the same regiment? I know it's badly painted, my mother must have repainted when she was a child!!

I don’t think so, at that time the HLI were not a kilt wearing regiment, despite being highlanders, and wore trews instead.  As trews were generally a lowland regiment feature this caused some confusion/controversy and, after WW2 (1948), the HLI did, finally, switch to kilts in certain orders of dress. 
 

NB.  Things with Scottish regiments are never straight forwards and there were exceptions.  Some Territorial (part time auxiliary) battalions of the HLI did wear kilts and regimental officers could wear kilts in certain forms of mess dress.

 

Edited 30 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

if the medal is a Delhi Durbar 1911 there is a roll of recipients on Ancestry or available free from TNA. Either way I've checked the roll which only shows 1st HLI and see the following candidates;

Major Charles Edward Andrews

Major Tyrell Carter Ross.

 

Andrews shows as 2nd Battalion in 1912 via Army Lists. Can't see battalion for Ross.

 

No date for the photo so it might be that the sitter was a Capt. In 1911, promoted after the Durbar and photographed after the promotion.

 

So I'll add Capt. RCW Alstone.

 

I find trying to navigate the 1912 Army List difficult, made worse by doing so on a phone. Not actually found the HLI section, above extracted from the index.

 

If it's a 1911 Coronation Medal things get more complex.

TEW

[charlie2]

7 minutes ago, TEW said:

If it's a 1911 Coronation Medal things get more complex.

To the best of my knowledge the ribbons and obverse of the two medals are the same, the only difference being the diameter of the disc.

 

Charlie 

[TEW]

Yes, I see they look similar but I'm not sure where a roll of recipients is. You can search TNA by name which is not very useful in this case.

 

Also just noticed a separate topic showing an orthochromatic photo of Delhi Durbar which renders very differently to this one. That makes this photo later, early 20s? That may introduce more candidates depending on promotion dates.

TEW

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, TEW said:

Yes, I see they look similar but I'm not sure where a roll of recipients is. You can search TNA by name which is not very useful in this case.

 

Also just noticed a separate topic showing an orthochromatic photo of Delhi Durbar which renders very differently to this one. That makes this photo later, early 20s? That may introduce more candidates depending on promotion dates.

TEW

Early 1920s is not impossible but it would be odd for an officer of his vintage and rank to not have WW1 or other campaign medals.

[TEW]

Just checked and it seems all 3 I put up earlier should have had arrays of pre-1911 campaign medals on show let alone WWI.

TEW

[gnr.ktrha]

It's an interesting photograph. There are a couple of points about it which leads me to believe that he is a Territorial force Officer. Firstly, his headdress is not of a pattern worn by a regular battalion of the Highland Light Infantry, during this period. They either wore a shako or glengarry bonnet. Secondly, his cap badge has a Long Scroll on it, which is usually a sign of it bearing the South Africa battle honour. There were some O/R cap badges with the Assaye battle honour on a long scroll, but I do not recall ever seeing an Officer's pattern. Thirdly, he does appear to be wearing the rank badge of a Major, however, if he was a Regular Army Officer, his doublet would show additional Gold Braid at the Cuffs and Collar to show it. However, I am sure he is a Major as he is armed with a Scottish Field officers pattern sword, these have a different style of basket to the Highland Pattern Broadsword. As a Field Officer, he would be mounted on a horse and that is one of the reasons for the differences in pattern of sword.
          I think he might be a Major in the 6th Battalion, Highland Light Infantry
             

[Diana14]

Thank you all, this is so informative and helpful.  A friend recommended this forum and said you all had amazing knowledge and how right they are.  My great grandfather born in Glasgow,  Fisher,  believed to be a descendant of Rob Roy. (as per my late mother)!.  All this information is fantastic and give me another piece to my puzzle.  Still cant link definitely  to my grandfather as yet (could possibly be his sibling) Will keep researching and thanks for the suggestion of TNA and Ancestry. 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, gnr.ktrha said:

It's an interesting photograph. There are a couple of points about it which leads me to believe that he is a Territorial force Officer. Firstly, his headdress is not of a pattern worn by a regular battalion of the Highland Light Infantry, during this period. They either wore a shako or glengarry bonnet. Secondly, his cap badge has a Long Scroll on it, which is usually a sign of it bearing the South Africa battle honour. There were some O/R cap badges with the Assaye battle honour on a long scroll, but I do not recall ever seeing an Officer's pattern. Thirdly, he does appear to be wearing the rank badge of a Major, however, if he was a Regular Army Officer, his doublet would show additional Gold Braid at the Cuffs and Collar to show it. However, I am sure he is a Major as he is armed with a Scottish Field officers pattern sword, these have a different style of basket to the Highland Pattern Broadsword. As a Field Officer, he would be mounted on a horse and that is one of the reasons for the differences in pattern of sword.
          I think he might be a Major in the 6th Battalion, Highland Light Infantry
             

You’ve made an excellent point and picked up the aspect of his dress that’s been bothering me all morning.   Well spotted, he is indeed dressed in the headdress and review order uniform of the 6th HLI (TF).  I’m busily kicking myself as l only posted about that unit a few months back with the enclosed image: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/283697-which-regiment-and-why-5-tassles/

 

Edited 30 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

6/HLI. Four majors in 1920 Hart's. Three have medal cards, Maj. George Jeffrey Aitken does not but Glasgow Uni records show an MID for him.

 

Made Capt. In 1912, no date for Maj. But ended as Lt. Col.

 

Difficult without having a date for the photo. May not have claimed WWI medals I suppose. Or of course another Army List could have other candidates.

TEW

[FROGSMILE]

55 minutes ago, TEW said:

6/HLI. Four majors in 1920 Hart's. Three have medal cards, Maj. George Jeffrey Aitken does not but Glasgow Uni records show an MID for him.

 

Made Capt. In 1912, no date for Maj. But ended as Lt. Col.

 

Difficult without having a date for the photo. May not have claimed WWI medals I suppose. Or of course another Army List could have other candidates.

TEW

If it’s any help my guess would be that the photo dates to soon after the medal was issued.  Until WW1 Territorials had few opportunities to qualify for a medal and, for anyone wishing to have a portrait photo in their regimental finery (and they did/do tend to love the novelty of wearing the ceremonial dress of a soldier), there was no time like the present.

Edited 30 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

I was going towards post-war based on the panchromatic film. Not an absolute of course, pan film available from 1906 but expensive and more complex to develop. Most WWI photos that come onto forum are ortho film.

 

Circa 1911/12 probably only for the well heeled, he may fit that demographic!

TEW

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, TEW said:

Circa 1911/12 probably only for the well heeled, he may fit that demographic!

TEW

Yes, I think you’d be not far off with that. 

[TEW]

Think my last offerings based on Hart's lists 1910, 1913 & 1914 and majors in 6th HLI are;

 

John Paterson Cochrane

William Meikle

William Gale

James Anderson.

 

If Diana14 recognises any names?

TEW

[Diana14]

Unfortunately not TEW, my scottish side is, 'Fisher' 'Clark' 'steel' 'McGregor'  going back as far as 1798!. Thank you for your input. I will ask the last remaining Fisher who lives in australia if he can throw any further light on it. 

[Diana14]

I've one last photo in the same collection and I'm assuming it is still ww1. Would this shine any light on the other photo?

[FROGSMILE]

It’s a completely different corps/regiment Diana, and not Scottish.  They all appear to be officers, which in such large numbers is a more rare sighting.  I can’t make out the cap badge with any clarity on my phone screen, but it appears to be vaguely star shaped and were I pushed I might suggest Army Service Corps (ASC).  It is definitely from the WW1 period.

Edited 30 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[gnr.ktrha]

I think I can see Lincolnshire Regiment Collar badges on a couple of the Officers in the photograph. Many seem to have cuff ranks, so this would date it to the Great War period. There are too many officers to be for one battalion, so it might be a Brigade camp, but I am not sure if there was a Brigade made up of battalions from the Lincolns, I would need to do some digging. 
      Another nice image.

[FROGSMILE]

50 minutes ago, gnr.ktrha said:

I think I can see Lincolnshire Regiment Collar badges on a couple of the Officers in the photograph. Many seem to have cuff ranks, so this would date it to the Great War period. There are too many officers to be for one battalion, so it might be a Brigade camp, but I am not sure if there was a Brigade made up of battalions from the Lincolns, I would need to do some digging. 
      Another nice image.

Squinting at my phone I think you’re correct.  Another fine spot.  I can just about see the Sphinx collar badge, and the OSD cap badge was star shaped for most, if not all of their battalions.

 

 

Edited 30 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

Another squint seems to show that the 3 maybe 4 senior officers in the centre of the front row are the only ones with medals. In which case the medals date from probably South Africa, and the photo is from before whenever the officers got their WW1 medals to wear

[FROGSMILE]

On 30/11/2020 at 21:38, corisande said:

Another squint seems to show that the 3 maybe 4 senior officers in the centre of the front row are the only ones with medals. In which case the medals date from probably South Africa, and the photo is from before whenever the officers got their WW1 medals to wear

Yes, I think the photo is from quite early in the war.  It is after 1912 as they all have the new style open collar jacket with shirt and tie.

Edited 15 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE