Which Regiment and why 5 tassles

[Richard.Ogden]

This is 2nd Lieutenant Frederick Thomas Monk who served with the Cameronians.  I have been told that his uniform is not of the 7th Scottish Rifles but of the 6th HLI.  

Can someone please verify this and let me know what the significance of the five tassels are.

 

Many thanks

 

[FROGSMILE]

6th Battalion Highland Light Infantry TF.  The five tassels were modelled after the Black Watch, some elements of whose dress the battalion partially emulated.

 

Edited 27 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[david murdoch]

This chap's medal card has him Frederick Thomas Monk MC  as 6th South Staffs, 7th S Rifles, South Staffordshire Regiment. His medals are to Scottish Rifles officers roll. Seeing photos on Ancestry family tree of same man dated 1915 clearly in Scottish rifles uniform. One 1917 shows him with his MC ribbon and rank of Captain (in Scottish Rifles). He was awarded Silver War Badge and clearly by later photos he had lost his right arm. There's a later photo of him (possibly after WW2) in uniform with several more ribbons than he got in WW1 - in this he's wearing tartan trews and an un diced glengarry. All of which make the HLI photo an oddball. 

[Ron Abbott]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

6th Battalion Highland Light Infantry TF.  The five tassels were modelled after the Black Watch, some elements of whose dress the battalion partially emulated.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what the history is behind the 6th Bn. HLI wearing that specific pattern of sporran, although the Black Watch is not one that springs to mind.

 

It was largely the 9th (Glasgow Highland) Bn. HLI who modelled their uniform on that of the Black Watch.

 

As for the man in the photo, yes he is in the uniform of the 6th Bn. HLI.

 

You'll notice that he is wearing a Mackenzie kilt centred on the white stripe, whereas the Seaforth Highlanders had their kilts centred on the red stripe.  But.......you'll find examples of this not being the case!!

 

The 6th HLI also wore kilts from the same sett ('size of square/pattern') as the Seaforth wore but they were apparently pleated differently at the rear. 

The other battalions of the HLI (9th excepted as they wore government tartan) wore Mackenzie tartan trews in a different sett, the 'pattern' being larger that that worn by the Seaforth (except for the 5th Seaforth who didn't wear Mackenzie at all).

 

His headwear, sporran, badge, collar badges, sporran cantle, the tartan, the cut of the kilt, the red/white hose tops, the double flashes......all point to 6th HLI.

 

All rather confusing, however the main thing is that your man is wearing 6th HLI uniform!

 

 

 

 

Edited 28 July , 2020 by Ron Abbott

[Richard.Ogden]

Again out of interest, the picture provided by FROGSMILE shows clearly 3 bands on the Tam; why is there only one apparent band on Monk's Tam? Is it a rank indicator?

[FROGSMILE]

I agree with Ron (and should have mentioned) that it was the 9th HLI whose uniform and insignia were wholly inspired by the Black Watch.  I still feel that the 6th (City of Glasgow) HLI officers sporran was probably based on that of the Black Watch too, but perhaps for reasons of pure pragmatism, in that the Territorial Force Association concerned with the HLI recruiting area and who paid for uniform, would have only needed to fund one pattern for wear with the kilts of both units.  However, that’s pure conjecture and I don’t know for sure.

 

In the photograph the top band of white dicing has merely been obscured by the fold over of the top of the bonnet, there was no rank differential.  He is a second lieutenant in rank and my guess is that this was his very first regiment and that he quickly transferred over to the Scottish Rifles, with whom the HLI had some degree of association via the shared depot and RHQ of the regular parent units in Glasgow.  They were also both a part of the Lowland Division, and 6th HLI and 7th Cameronian’s each had battalion HQs and companies in the city.

 

 Interestingly the sporrans of other ranks of 6th HLI only had 3-tassels, thus maintaining the protocol that officers were visually different to their men.

 

 

 

Edited 29 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

I’m fascinated by all the minutiae of Scottish military dress and impressed by you guys’ knowledge of them. I’m also aware that the military would have had problems observing the minor variations in a time when supply of uniforms was problematic. To what extent did the battalions have to waive their idiosyncrasies of dress and which came first?

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, PhilB said:

I’m fascinated by all the minutiae of Scottish military dress and impressed by you guys’ knowledge of them. I’m also aware that the military would have had problems observing the minor variations in a time when supply of uniforms was problematic. To what extent did the battalions have to waive their idiosyncrasies of dress and which came first?

 

The idiosyncrasies of the Scottish regiments were largely observed throughout the war, although there were emergency replacements such as a utilitarian plain glengarry in use for a while, and the Tam-o-Shanter bonnet eventually became a common headdress worn by all Scottish line infantry regiments in the field.  From 1916 the war office took over the funding of insignia and uniforms for TF battalions from the Territorial Association so that there was a single chain of supply.

Edited 28 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

20 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The idiosyncrasies of the Scottish regiments were largely observed throughout the war, although there were emergency replacements such as a utilitarian plain glengarry in use for a while, and the Tam-o-Shanter bonnet eventually became a common headdress worn by all Scottish line infantry regiments in the field.  From 1916 the war office took over the funding of insignia and uniforms for TF battalions from the Territorial Association so that there was a single chain of supply.

 

I still struggle with some of the idiosyncrasies you mention. Interesting to read what you say about the WO taking over funding for TF battalions and use of 'utility' Glengarries, etc. Any idea whether badges were affected? For example, 5th Seaforth adopting (or being forced by circumstances to adopt) the regular Seaforth badge?

[Steven Broomfield]

Judging by photographs, I suspect the 5th Seaforth continued to wear their badge throughout.

[Steven Broomfield]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I agree with Ron (and should have mentioned) that it was the 9th HLI whose uniform and insignia were inspired by the Black Watch.  I still feel that the 6th (City of Glasgow) HLI officers sporran was probably based on that of the Black Watch too, but perhaps for reasons of pure pragmatism, in that the Territorial Force Association concerned with the HLI recruiting area and who paid for uniform, would have only needed to fund one pattern for wear with the kilts of both units.  However, that’s pure conjecture and I don’t know for sure.

 

 

 

I wonder if items such as sporrans were regimentally-supplied rather than by the TFA. Certainly London Scottish kit was: we were issued with government kit, but items such as kilts and sporrans were held regimentally.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

I wonder if items such as sporrans were regimentally-supplied rather than by the TFA. Certainly London Scottish kit was: we were issued with government kit, but items such as kilts and sporrans were held regimentally.

 

I do not know for sure, but strongly suspect that things were different back in 1914-18 in Scotland (as opposed to London), where there was a substantial industry geared towards providing all manner of Scottish regalia for the military.  Edinburgh for its kilts, Kilmarnock for bonnets, plus many others.  I imagine that the relationship with TF County Associations was strong, not least given the largely civilian businessmen that presided.  That way they had far greater input to quality control than if they relied upon government contracts established by faceless War Office bureaucrats probably based far away.

Edited 28 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

 

I still struggle with some of the idiosyncrasies you mention. Interesting to read what you say about the WO taking over funding for TF battalions and use of 'utility' Glengarries, etc. Any idea whether badges were affected? For example, 5th Seaforth adopting (or being forced by circumstances to adopt) the regular Seaforth badge?

 

I'm not aware of any influence to change Scottish regimental insignia.  They were excluded from any interference with the metals used for the benefit of simplified manufacture, given that all their badges were one (white) metal anyway.  I'm assuming that the WO took over the provision of clothing and insignia in order to create greater efficiency of supply after the introduction of conscription that effectively put the entire nation on a total war footing.

Edited 28 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Richard.Ogden]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I agree with Ron (and should have mentioned) that it was the 9th HLI whose uniform and insignia were inspired by the Black Watch.  I still feel that the 6th (City of Glasgow) HLI officers sporran was probably based on that of the Black Watch too, but perhaps for reasons of pure pragmatism, in that the Territorial Force Association concerned with the HLI recruiting area and who paid for uniform, would have only needed to fund one pattern for wear with the kilts of both units.  However, that’s pure conjecture and I don’t know for sure.

 

In the photograph the top band of white dicing has merely been obscured by the fold over of the top of the bonnet, there was no rank differential.  He is a second lieutenant in rank and my guess is that this was his very first regiment and that he quickly transferred over to the Scottish Rifles, with whom the HLI had some degree of association via the shared depot and RHQ of the regular parent units in Glasgow.  They were also both a part of the Lowland Division, and 6th HLI and 7th Cameronian’s each had battalion HQs and companies in the city.

 

 Interestingly the sporrans of other ranks of 6th HLI only had 3-tassels, thus maintaining the protocol that officers were visually different to their men.

 

 

 

Thank you for all of this detail it is great.  Would you think that if he had transfered from 6th HLI to 7th Scottish Rifles in a very short time frame, this might not be reflected on his record card, bearing in mind his card indicates he was in the 6th South Staffordshire Regiment beforehand?

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, Richard.Ogden said:

Thank you for all of this detail it is great.  Would you think that if he had transfered from 6th HLI to 7th Scottish Rifles in a very short time frame, this might not be reflected on his record card, bearing in mind his card indicates he was in the 6th South Staffordshire Regiment beforehand?

It seems odd that there’s no record of the HLI at all and I can only assume that he transferred whilst still undergoing a probationary period, as in such circumstances he would not go on to the HLI books until formally accepted at the end of that.  Such probation was quite common to ensure that the regiment liked the officer and the officer liked the regiment.  It was not unusual to move on if things didn’t work out, and there were all kinds of perfectly acceptable reasons why that might be.

 

Was he an other rank (OR) with the South Staffords and then commissioned as an officer subsequently? 

Edited 28 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[david murdoch]

He's in London Gazette 3/6/1915 to be 2nd Lt, 7th Cameronians dated 14th June 1915. He shows up in newspapers July 1916 as being promoted Temporary Captain (commanding a company) Scottish Rifles. Military Cross LG: 29886/1 January 1st 1917. His officer disability entry notes him as 7th Scottish Rifles and going by the photos on Ancestry was in Catterick (with Scottish Rifles) in 1916. He resigned his commission in 1918 due to ill heath due to wounds. So looks like all his overseas service was with 7th Scottish Rifles. Noting his service before and during WW2 his service records will likely be with the MOD. As been mentioned to fit the time frame of the HLI photo - this was maybe during probationary period - first half of 1915.

He may have joined the South Staffs in the ranks  early on and then applied or put forward for commission or being 6th Battalion was already a territorial. His Scottish Rifles BWM/VM medal roll notes him attd. South Staffs! 

Edited 29 July , 2020 by david murdoch

[Richard.Ogden]

4 hours ago, david murdoch said:

He's in London Gazette 3/6/1915 to be 2nd Lt, 7th Cameronians dated 14th June 1915. He shows up in newspapers July 1916 as being promoted Temporary Captain (commanding a company) Scottish Rifles. Military Cross LG: 29886/1 January 1st 1917. His officer disability entry notes him as 7th Scottish Rifles and going by the photos on Ancestry was in Catterick (with Scottish Rifles) in 1916. He resigned his commission in 1918 due to ill heath due to wounds. So looks like all his overseas service was with 7th Scottish Rifles. Noting his service before and during WW2 his service records will likely be with the MOD. As been mentioned to fit the time frame of the HLI photo - this was maybe during probationary period - first half of 1915.

He may have joined the South Staffs in the ranks  early on and then applied or put forward for commission or being 6th Battalion was already a territorial. His Scottish Rifles BWM/VM medal roll notes him attd. South Staffs! 

David, thank you very much for the information you have provided; it is of great help in understanding Monk's military path and, in some ways, to an amateur, understanding how he is to be wearing the HLI uniform.

[david murdoch]

14 hours ago, Richard.Ogden said:

David, thank you very much for the information you have provided; it is of great help in understanding Monk's military path and, in some ways, to an amateur, understanding how he is to be wearing the HLI uniform.

The uniform is HLI confirmed by the postings above - why he is wearing it is the mystery without seeing his service record. As has been mentioned he may have been with them briefly while on probationary period  but then commissioned into 7th Scottish rifles. Everything onwards links him to Scottish Rifles. The picture of him as an older man probably dates to 1945 or so - after he received his OBE and  WW2 medals (and possibly some other decorations going by the number of ribbons).

However the HLI uniform appears to be of an already commissioned 2nd Lt.  Another off the wall explanation is that it's not actually his uniform! It may be that of a friend who he was a cadet with and commissioned at the same time. He was English but in a Scottish regiment, but perhaps fancied a picture in a kilt to send to his wife.  

[FROGSMILE]

I don’t understand where people get this almost obsession with the idea that the men of 1914-18 dressed up in each other’s uniform.  There are photos where some men swapped hats with allied foreign soldiers in camaraderie, and women had photos taken in their men’s uniform, but there’s no evidence that I’ve ever seen over many decades now that soldiers were so vain, weird, or disrespectful of their regiments to the extent that they dressed up in each other’s clothing.  It is imposing the attitudes and social mores of today on the men of a hundred years ago to pretend otherwise, and quite frankly, risible. 

Edited 5 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[rolt968]

For what it's worth here is his obituary:

 

Birmingham Post and Gazette 1 November 1957.

There are (undated) pension index cards giving his widow as Dorothy

RM

 

[kloughnane]

Richard,

 

I hope you don't mind but I had a go at colourising your original photo. My apologies if the colours aren't quite right.

 

Regards,

 

Kev Loughnane