Can anybody help identify this Regiment

[chids]

I woke up to some wonderful news from my Great Aunt, bless her she’s in her 80’s and because of lockdown I’ve not been able to see her for a while, we just have our weekly phone call.

She messaged over night to say she has a photo of William in a kilt which has written on the back Army Veterinary Corp and Seaforth Highlanders, so I now have his details. I will post a photograph once she has sent me a copy.

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their help, as always I’m extremely grateful.

 

The link above, first posted by TullochArd was spot on!

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/4881219
 

[charlie962]

Great news.

 

We were all heading in the right direction but hard work! That photo, and the reverse side, is the vital link. The Lives entry only has wartime info and no family background. That wartime info was researched and  loaded by 'susan' who created a community for the 1/1st Sth midland Mobile Veterinary Section.

 

Next step could be to trace 'Susan'

[charlie962]

For the Seaforths time, a near number shows issued 1/9/18 and I suggest this was same for Wootton. He would have followed same timeline as this man and perhaps his record had similar entry:

 

This is from service record of S/43631 (courtesy FindmyPast)  showing posting to 1/5th Bn which is where other near numbers seem to have gone. Identical entries are made on Service record of S/43652 who also joined 'A' Coy 10/9/18. Thus two records  straddling Wootton's number of S/43639.

 

War Diary is here at Nat Archives and currently free to download if you register

[chids]

Thanks Charlie, thats brilliant stuff, I will message Susan to see if she has any further information regarding William.

 

Thats a great idea to search for regiment numbers either side, so even though William's record appears not to have survived, I can trace his movement by following the movements of others in his regiment. Great Tip!!!

Forgot to add thanks for the War Diary link, I have my great grandfathers war diary notes from around when he died at Gallipoli and this give a great insight as to what was going on at the time, thanks again for your help

[charlie962]

War Diary 1/5th Seaforth 11/9/18   .. A draft of 303 ORs joined Bn yesterday.

 

There was a lot of hard fighting in the closing months so lots to read up.

 

6 minutes ago, chids said:

I will message Susan

The links on Lives to email etc I do not believe work anymore ? Susan seems to have researched men in Worcestershire area ?

[chids]

Just downloaded the three PDF files on TNA website, will keep me busy for a while, I will see if there is another way of tracing Susan as well, you never know. Thanks again Charlie for your help

[charlie962]

Note the additional typescript reports on actions.

Casualties were heavy- this for October1918 (courtesy Ancestry copy of War Diary):

Edited 28 October , 2020 by charlie962

[chids]

I know that he survives the War, but no idea if he was wounded or not

[charlie962]

His Seaforth name and number did not come up on the NLS Casualty Lists 1918

[charlie962]

For his period with 2/4th London it might be worth looking further at service record of S/43652 that I mentioned above. He had come from an AVC unit and been trf'd to 2/4th London on 30/4/18 ..'Compulsory for the benefit of the Service'.

 

But I get the impression he remained at Base until the posting to 1/5 Seaforths. Perhaps a crash course in Infantry work ?

 

More work needed to unravel this.

[chids]

Thanks Charlie, there's a lot to take in, I really do appreciate the help and expertise of the people on here, who can quickly decipher the codes and jargon on the records, something that would take me a long time to achieve.

[charlie962]

45 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

But I get the impression he remained at Base until the posting to 1/5 Seaforths. Perhaps a crash course in Infantry work ?

Further on this I have found two service records for men going via 2/4th London 1/5/18 to 1/5th Seaforth 1/9/18 and in both cases their time with 2/4th London seems actually to be:

Compulsory trf to 2/4th London   1 or 2/5/18

then passing via 'B' Infantry Base Depot

to 58th Divisional Depot Battalion 10/5/18

to No 1 R.T.C                                 22/6/18   (nothing to do with Tank Corps but I assume some Training Centre)

then  to 1/5th Seaforth                    1/9/18  as above

 

So it is quite possible Wootton never joined 2/4th London  'at the front'

Edited 28 October , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Here is an old thread talking about Divisional Depot Battalions.

 

Note that 2/4th Londons was part of 58th Division.

 

I'm not sure about RTC. Could it be Reinforcement or Reserve, Training Centre ?

[charlie962]

I've now found RTC stands for Reinforcement Training Camp.

 

Here is an extract from a most useful ethesis by Alison Hine

Changes to the Reception of Reinforcements  1918
It was decided in late May to abolish Corps Reinforcement Camps, perhaps because too many of them had been caught up in the fighting of March and April and had proved unable to send reinforcements forward. Instead, two Reinforcement Training Camps were to be established near the Bases, for ‘combed out’ men and those requiring training, and Reception Camps were to be established for each Army, Corps and Division. By mid-June the new organization was in place. Army Reception Camps had been formed: Second Army’s at Watten, First and Fifth Army sharing a camp at Auvin, Third Army’s at Doullens and Fourth Army’s at Longpré. Corps Reception Camps had been formed for all Corps except the IXth and Division Reception Camps for all divisions except those previously cadreized. No 1 Reinforcement Training Camp had been completed at Audresselles and orders issued for No 2 Camp to be prepared at Ste Marguerite.101 The purpose behind the changes would appear to have been the requirement to have reinforcements as close behind divisions as possible.

 

 

In the light of this I am now convinced that Wootton did not see action with 2/4th London, but then had a dramatic time with 1/5th seaforths in Oct 1918 and seems to have come out unscathed unlike 50% of his comrades (408 ORs Killed wounded and missing for that month as per post above).

 

Charlie

Edited 28 October , 2020 by charlie962

[chids]

Thats brilliant Charlie, so he would most likely have followed the same movement between the Battalions as the others and would have been at the reinforcement training camp RTC rather than at the front, when he switched from the London Regiment to the Seaforth Highlanders. I cant thank you enough for piecing that together.

[charlie962]

3 minutes ago, chids said:

so he would most likely have followed the same movement between the Battalions as the others

Yes I am pretty sure in this case. One must always be careful not to read too much into other men's service records but here the logic is clear.

 

Charlie

 

PS I think my father dropped bombs on Audresselles in 1943 !

[chids]

Although its never wise to assume, it makes perfect logical sense to presume the same movements as the others, especially as we already know the Regiments that he served.

 

It sounds like he was rather lucky with the 1/5th seaforths if they suffered such severe loses.

 

 

 

[charlie962]

So I suggest you ignore the very last bit of Susan's story re 2/4th Londons. But the earlier stuff should all be very good.

[chids]

Thanks Charlie, tried various avenues on the IWM website, but there is no way of contacting her on there, which is a shame.

[chids]

As promised here’s William in his full uniform, Kilt and all!

 

i presume that this is the Seaforth Highlanders Uniform. 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, chids said:

As promised here’s William in his full uniform, Kilt and all!

 

i presume that this is the Seaforth Highlanders Uniform. 

 

The kilt looks more like the Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) to me.  The Seaforth had Mackenzie kilts that have a distinctive white over check that’s not visible in this photo.

Edited 28 October , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Ron Abbott]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The kilt looks more like the Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) to me.  The Seaforth had Mackenzie kilts that have a distinctive white over check that’s not visible in this photo.

 

 

I agree with your observation about the kilt, however the Corporal chevrons are very faint and more importantly although you can't see the whole flashes against his hose, they do appear to be long ones and in the style of the Seaforth. Highlanders.  

[Myrtle]

There was a Pte. W. Wootton a baker from Mansell Gamage listed under Hereford Regiment - Derby Men in the 25th March 1916 Hereford Times, although the cap badge is not Herefordshire Regiment.  As you probably know Mansell Gamage and Byford are in close proximity to each other. 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

 

 

I agree with your observation about the kilt, however the Corporal chevrons are very faint and more importantly although you can't see the whole flashes against his hose, they do appear to be long ones and in the style of the Seaforth. Highlanders.  

Yes, I hadn’t even noticed the Corporal stripes until you mentioned them, Ron.  I’m not sure that the white lines in the sett would completely disappear though.  It’s rather puzzling.

Edited 29 October , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

10 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

 

 

I agree with your observation about the kilt, however the Corporal chevrons are very faint and more importantly although you can't see the whole flashes against his hose, they do appear to be long ones and in the style of the Seaforth. Highlanders.  

 

And he was in the 5th Seaforth, so a Government sett would be right.