Autochromes

[Gunner Hall]

I  find it hard to recognise faces at the best of times, These are worse as they are masked by facial hair and  crushed between chinstraps.  Trotter it is then. 

I found a picture of Major Hore-Ruthven of the Scots Guards.  He had the same features. Should have posted it up really, but I was put off because his most prominent feature was a very prominent Kaiser Bill tache. Cou!d be that the chin straps obliterate the upsweeps? Full dress rank I.D. Is not my expertise. Is he a Major or a more exhaulted creature?

 

 

Edited 25 September , 2020 by Gunner Hall

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Gunner Hall said:

I  find it hard to recognise faces at the best of times, These are worse as they are masked by facial hair and  crushed between chinstraps.  Trotter it is then. 

I found a picture of Major Hore-Ruthven of the Scots Guards.  He had the same features. Should have posted it up really, but I was put off because his most prominent feature was a very prominent Kaiser Bill tache. Cou!d be that the chin straps obliterate the upsweeps? Full dress rank I.D. Is not my expertise. Is he a Major or a more exhaulted creature?

 

 

He might not have had the upsweeps at the time of the photo (1909), I can see no inkling of them.  The thick band of gold lace circling around his cuff is correct for a Major and Lieutenant Colonel, so I think you may well have our final man.

[Gunner Hall]

Walter Patrick Hore- Ruthven. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw52418/Walter-Patrick-Hore-Ruthven-10th-Baron-Ruthven  

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Gunner Hall said:

Walter Patrick Hore- Ruthven. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw52418/Walter-Patrick-Hore-Ruthven-10th-Baron-Ruthven  

Brilliant! I think that’s definitely him.  The OP can now name all three men for his image.  That’s quite an achievement and a testament perhaps to the quality of the original photograph 👍

Edited 26 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

In the colour photo, the Scots Guards officer on the left is only wearing 2 medals, a DSO and a QSA.

Ruthven in the 1909 photo has a DSO, a QSA and a couple more.

Would we not expect him to have all 4 (and any extras accumulated between 1909 and 1911) on display?

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

In the colour photo, the Scots Guards officer on the left is only wearing 2 medals, a DSO and a QSA.

Ruthven in the 1909 photo has a DSO, a QSA and a couple more.

Would we not expect him to have all 4 (and any extras accumulated between 1909 and 1911) on display?

I understand your point, but I think I might have misunderstood the detail.  The colour photo is circa 1909 and relates to the TF camp of that year (the first one after its creation in 1908, so a significant event).  The black and white photo appears to be a print of 1914, so 5-years later.  I’m less familiar with the details of medals and so am unsure what the extras are, but I do recall that Guards officers frequently received honours in the sovereign’s gift of various grades (e.g. MVO).  I confess that I was convinced by the facial aspects and stature alone.  They look like the same man to me, Dai.  My guess is that the colour photo shows the DSO and the SA medal with all the bars.  The two intermediate medals might then relate to lesser honours and commemoratives, but that’s just a stab in the dark.  I can’t of course be 100% sure that it is the same person.  Perhaps a medal expert can advise.  

Edited 26 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Ah yes, ignore my last post.

The Black & White print is dated 1914.

I wrongly thought  it was 1909.

[TEW]

Gmac01 asked if the officers were identifiable and if they survived the war?

 

Hore-Ruthven has an extensive WWI list of GSO commands. I can see several MID Listings and both sides of his MIC are very busy!

 

Stuart Humphryes. website has a WWI dedicated page. Subject matter for everyone there I think.

 

He may be interested in adding the names to the officers on his Twitter?

TEW

 

 

Edited 26 September , 2020 by TEW

[RNCVR]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 My guess is that the colour photo shows the DSO and the SA medal with all the bars.  The two intermediate medals might then relate to lesser honours and commemoratives, but that’s just a stab in the dark.  I can’t of course be 100% sure that it is the same person.  Perhaps a medal expert can advise.  

 

In the NPG photo the Scots Guards Officer wears DSO, QV Jubilee (likely 1897), Edward VII Coronation, & 9 clasp QSA.

In the photo of the 3 Officers he is only wearing DSO & QSA with less clasps, this photo must have been taken after the award of the QSA, so he should also be wearing the two additional medals he wears in the NPG photo.

Is this the same Officer?

 

Thanks,

Bryan

 

 

[Gunner Hall]

GMAC101 posting up the army lists, and the relative rarity of the D.S.O added to the exclusivity of the regiments concerned,  made it easier.  If it had been a parcel of gunners and engineers, the task would have been much harder.  

What a resource this forum is.

[gmac101]

51 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

In the NPG photo the Scots Guards Officer wears DSO, QV Jubilee (likely 1897), Edward VII Coronation, & 9 clasp QSA.

In the photo of the 3 Officers he is only wearing DSO & QSA with less clasps, this photo must have been taken after the award of the QSA, so he should also be wearing the two additional medals he wears in the NPG photo.

Is this the same Officer?

 

Thanks,

Bryan

 

 

There are 3 Scots Guards with DSO's in the army lists.

 

Hore-Ruthven, Frederic James Heyworth and Henry Cecil Lowther

 

 

Lowther

 

 

This is Heyworth.

 

It could be Heyworth but I'm not up much on medals and awards.  Heyworth died in the war, shot by a sniper. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, RNCVR said:

 

In the NPG photo the Scots Guards Officer wears DSO, QV Jubilee (likely 1897), Edward VII Coronation, & 9 clasp QSA.

In the photo of the 3 Officers he is only wearing DSO & QSA with less clasps, this photo must have been taken after the award of the QSA, so he should also be wearing the two additional medals he wears in the NPG photo.

Is this the same Officer?

 

Thanks,

Bryan

 

 

As I said I cannot be 100% sure Bryan, but his face and stature suggests it is, and Gunner Hall has been able to narrow down the possibles via the fact that he’s one of a limited number of Scots Guards officers who’s a recipient of the DSO.

 

4 minutes ago, gmac101 said:

There are 3 Scots Guards with DSO's in the army lists.

 

Hore-Ruthven, Frederic James Heyworth and Henry Cecil Lowther

 

 

Lowther

 

 

This is Heyworth.

 

It could be Heyworth but I'm not up much on medals and awards.  Heyworth died in the war, shot by a sniper. 

 

I agree that Heyworth appears to be the only other contender based on his award and facial appearance.

Edited 26 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

Snapshot from TheGenealogist for Hore-Ruthven who cite. The Victoria Cross & Distinguished Service Order 1857-1923.

 

8 clasps to QSA and 2 to KSA?

 

TEW 

 

 

[TEW]

Same spource as previous.

 

1911 Heyworth should have The Khedive's Sudan Medal, 1 clasp and QSA 2 clasps plus the DSO.

 

Or should that be a Khedive's Sudan medal as a supplement to a Queen's Sudan Medal?

TEW

[TEW]

Ditto Lowther.

1911 should have;

QSA 6 clasps.

KSA 2 clasps

DSO

 

TEW

[RNCVR]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

As I said I cannot be 100% sure Bryan, but his face and stature suggests it is, and Gunner Hall has been able to narrow down the possibles via the fact that he’s one of a limited number of Scots Guards officers who’s a recipient of the DSO.

 

I agree that Heyworth appears to be the only other contender based on his award and facial appearance.

 

I dont wish to argue with you by any means but I feel an officer of his stature & dress, & as you well know, in his time dress was of extreme importance, he would have been wearing his full medal entitlement!

[RNCVR]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

Snapshot from TheGenealogist for Hore-Ruthven who cite. The Victoria Cross & Distinguished Service Order 1857-1923.

 

8 clasps to QSA and 2 to KSA?

 

TEW 

 

 

 

He definitely has 9 clasps to his QSA, & the top two might be SA'01 & SA'02, issued after his state & battle clasps. Perhaps he did not have the 18 months to qualify for the King' SA medal.  Sometimes those entries can contain errors.

[TEW]

The original Tweet from late July has 112 replies if that's the right term.

 

Heyworth was put up as an ID for the Scot's Guardsman partly based on a 1914 photo of him with same pair of medals. Photo too fuzzy for me to see anything.

 

Others not identified.

TEW

[RNCVR]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

Same spource as previous.

 

1911 Heyworth should have The Khedive's Sudan Medal, 1 clasp and QSA 2 clasps plus the DSO.

 

Or should that be a Khedive's Sudan medal as a supplement to a Queen's Sudan Medal?

TEW

 

He should have both Queen's Soudan & Khedive's Soudan medals.

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

I dont wish to argue with you by any means but I feel an officer of his stature & dress, & as you well know, in his time dress was of extreme importance, he would have been wearing his full medal entitlement!

I don’t perceive you as arguing with me Bryan, you might well be right.  As I’ve said once I’m not a medal expert, and said twice, I’m not positive it’s him!  That’s why I invited the input of those who know about medals to hopefully sort it out.  The facial features and stature, i.e. his physiology, are just one factor to be balanced alongside his uniform, rank and medal entitlement.

Edited 26 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

23 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

He should have both Queen's Soudan & Khedive's Soudan medals.

 Think that excludes him then.

 

First hit on campaign awards (Ancestry) I found was for Hore-Ruthven's KSA & 2 clasps 1901 & 02. Lowther is on same roll with same entitlement.

 

Heyworth is on preceding sheet with KSA & 2 Clasps, 01 & 02.

 

All 3 on same roll for SA + clasps, same six clasps for Lowther & Heyworth, + Paardeberg for H-R although his has been struck through as Medal already issued.

 

Any protocol for not wearing both SA medals?

TEW 

[RNCVR]

To qualify for KSA they had to have 18 months service continuous, from my head cannot recall exact dates but think from 1 Jan 1901 to end of June 1902.

Many units qualified for both QSA & KSA as their units were quite a lengthy period in theatre. If the KSA service was not continuous then they qualified for the 2 date clasps on their QSA medals.

 

If Hore-Ruthven qualified for KSA then that cannot be him in the coloured photo.

But the NPG photo there is no KSA either!

 

Thanks, Bryan

 

 

Edited 26 September , 2020 by RNCVR

[RNCVR]

54 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t perceive you as arguing with me Bryan, you might well be right.  As I’ve said once I’m not a medal expert, and said twice, I’m not positive it’s him!  That’s why I invited the input of those who know about medals to hopefully sort it out.  The facial features and stature, i.e. his physiology, are just one factor to be balanced alongside his uniform, rank and medal entitlement.

 

I agree with you Froggie, establishing a positive ID is problematic at best, its not an exact science.  Medals only a part of trying to establish an ID & even that sometimes 

not accurate. Faces are the hard part especially if many yrs separate images.

 

Best....Bryan

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, RNCVR said:

 

I agree with you Froggie, establishing a positive ID is problematic at best, its not an exact science.  Medals only a part of trying to establish an ID & even that sometimes 

not accurate. Faces are the hard part especially if many yrs separate images.

 

Best....Bryan

We can’t rule all three men out on the basis of one or two campaign medals if only these three Scots Guards officers had been awarded the DSO that can clearly be seen in the ‘subject’ photo.  And yet, unless I’ve misunderstood, that’s precisely what you seem to be proposing?

Edited 26 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

I dont have the solution Froggie, I am just interpreting the medals as I see them.

Perhaps we are missing something(obvious?), I just dont know, hopefully someone else will pick up on this & provide a solution.....