Autochromes

[TEW]

Perhaps it's not 1911!

 

Not had any luck but have tried other Scots Guards with DSO for 1908 & 1910 Army Lists.

 

William Pulteney Pulteney looks similar but should also have more medals.

 

Ditto. Sherard Haughton Godman.

 

Bertram Henry Samuel Romilly a Capt. in 1910 seems to lack the KSA but should have a Khedive's.

 

Can't find 1912 list.

TEW 

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, TEW said:

Perhaps it's not 1911!

 

Not had any luck but have tried other Scots Guards with DSO for 1908 & 1910 Army Lists.

 

William Pulteney Pulteney looks similar but should also have more medals.

 

Ditto. Sherard Haughton Godman.

 

Bertram Henry Samuel Romilly a Capt. in 1910 seems to lack the KSA but should have a Khedive's.

 

Can't find 1912 list.

TEW 

The colour photo is definitely 1909.  The inaugural annual training camp of the TF was a big deal, so hence the visit of Lord Haldane (who was responsible for its genesis) along with a large entourage from London.

Edited 27 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[gmac101]

I'm busy most of today but I have a British Newspaper Archive sub and if you know the dates of the TF camp in 1909 I can check the papers to see if they list who attended.  

[TEW]

I see 1909 was put forward as the correct date for the colour photo on page 1. I missed that.

 

The Hart's lists of DSO contenders put up later are for 1911 as per the OP and tweet. The discussion for Heyworth, Hore-Ruthven & Lowther being the only DSO contenders has been based on the 1911 Army Lists.

 

I can't find a 1909 list so will wait and see what the BNA may have. Always possible that the exact date of the event and the compilation date for 1909 Army List means that an officer may not appear.

TEW

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, gmac101 said:

I'm busy most of today but I have a British Newspaper Archive sub and if you know the dates of the TF camp in 1909 I can check the papers to see if they list who attended.  

I’ve done a bit of digging and although 1909 was indeed the first year where annual training camps came under the overarching responsibility of the TF, the policy by which they were run was unchanged, with each County Association organising its own camp.  This could encompass all arms from the county (i.e. Yeomanry, artillery infantry plus associated ambulances, and army service corps trains), but that was not always the case.  The Bucks Yeomanry camp and review in 1909 took place near Bulford, as mentioned previously, and photos were taken of Lord Haldane’s visit. The year following, 1910, the Bucks Hussars completed their camp at Stowe, in the grounds belonging to the grand house there.  I don’t know what other arms were involved, but I imagine that local newspapers will have recorded the details.  As regards dates, I will keep looking but I imagine it would have been in a month of high summer, given that accommodation was under canvas.

 

The visit by Haldane was definitely in 1909 and the event was photographed, but perhaps I have inadvertently conflated that with the colour photo in this thread that purports to be 1911.  I had perhaps made the wrong assumption that the presence of the Scots Guards officer in particular implied a visit by a VIP from London.  The 2nd LG officer less so as he might have been an adviser given his cavalry expertise.  However, these camps generally included a review by a senior personage and it might be that 1911 involved a VIP in the same way that 1909 did.

Edited 27 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

Either way, the Army Lists I've now checked for 1908-1913 offer up the same officers.

 

I've realised also that for some of the officers named so far I've said he doesn't have enough medals on show.

 

Having checked my Taprell Dorling and looked at other photos of some of the contenders I've realised the following;

 

The 01 & 02 Clasps for KSA are worn on QSA if not entitled to KSA. So, the officers I said should show DSO, QSA & KSA may actually only have the KSA clasps not the medal.

 

This seems to be the case for Hore-Ruthven, the NPG image shows 9 clasps on one medal, 7 QSA + 2 KSA.

 

Next issue is some have Queens Sudan Medal and/or Khedive's Star as well. The Sudan Medal awarded in 1911 for services in 1910-11 then extended for 1912.

 

Khedive's Star for service 1896-1905.

 

If the photo is 1909 there won't be Sudan on show, if it's 1911 they might be depending on precise dates.

 

I think for 1908-1911 that puts the following back in the picture.

 

Maj. Hore-Ruthven

Maj. SH Godman (1908 only)

Capt. BHS Romilly

Capt. AAL Stephens

 

I think the captains can be excluded which points the finger at Hore-Ruthven. Other DSO contenders should have CB, MVO or Khedive's Star.

 

Phew!

TEW

 

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, TEW said:

Either way, the Army Lists I've now checked for 1908-1913 offer up the same officers.

 

I've realised also that for some of the officers named so far I've said he doesn't have enough medals on show.

 

Having checked my Taprell Dorling and looked at other photos of some of the contenders I've realised the following;

 

The 01 & 02 Clasps for KSA are worn on QSA if not entitled to KSA. So, the officers I said should show DSO, QSA & KSA may actually only have the KSA clasps not the medal.

 

This seems to be the case for Hore-Ruthven, the NPG image shows 9 clasps on one medal, 7 QSA + 2 KSA.

 

Next issue is some have Queens Sudan Medal and/or Khedive's Star as well. The Sudan Medal awarded in 1911 for services in 1910-11 then extended for 1912.

 

Khedive's Star for service 1896-1905.

 

If the photo is 1909 there won't be Sudan on show, if it's 1911 they might be depending on precise dates.

 

I think for 1908-1911 that puts the following back in the picture.

 

Maj. Hore-Ruthven

Maj. SH Godman (1908 only)

Capt. BHS Romilly

Capt. AAL Stephens

 

I think the captains can be excluded which points the finger at Hore-Ruthven. Other DSO contenders should have CB, MVO or Khedive's Star.

 

Phew!

TEW

 

Excellent deductive work TEW, I too think that Hore-Ruthven is the most likely of those who meet the criterion.  He has from the outset ‘looked’ right to me both, facially, and stature wise.

Edited 27 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

Yes, bit of going around in circles. I went off track with the KSA awards listed. Then could not get why H-R had 9 clasps up on QSA in 1914 when roll only shows 7. Taprell to the rescue regarding the 2 extra clasps and a missing KSA.

TEW

[TwoEssGee]

Just came across this discussion, and I can add a few photographs to perhaps either help or maybe muddy the waters as regards the Scots Guardsman.

I'm no medal expert, so I'll leave that aspect to those who are.

 

First photograph is Heyworth and Hore Ruthven sitting side by side, and dates from, I believe 1903 or 1904. Heyworth (on the left) was a Major and Hore Ruthven a Captain.

The second is Heyworth (known to all Scots Guardsmen as 'Pa') somewhere in France or Belgium late 1914 or early 1915.

The third is Hore Ruthven in France, probably early 1915, as the photograph has been marked 'Maj Jerry Ruthven' and indicates it was taken at Bethune. Hore Ruthven was known as 'Jerry' to his fellow officers and he could well have been a Lt Col by this time, and commanding the 1st Battalion. 

(Pictures 2 and 3 courtesy of the Saumarez collection)

 

 

I think we can discount Lt Col Cecil Lowther, as he looks very different from the man in the autochrome photograph.

Edited 30 September , 2020 by TwoEssGee

[TwoEssGee]

And just for comparison's sake, this photograph shows Lt BHS Romilly (Left) and Lt AAL Stephen both of 1st Bn Scots Guards on their return from South Africa 1903 or 1904.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you for those super photos TwoEssGee, they certainly cement my belief that the subject colour photo shows Hore-Ruthven.

 

I don't know if you are a former Guardsman, or just interested in the battalion, but I have very fond memories of being attached as part of my platoon to Right Flank 2 SG for one month, when they were in the Brown Street Car Park Patrol Base, Shankhill, in 1976.  It was an intense period and I've never forgotten it.

Edited 30 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TwoEssGee]

Because of the bearskin and curb chain obscuring part of his face I'm not 100% certain of the identity of the SG officer in the colour photo, but I am inclined to agree that the jawline and moustache make it more likely to be Major Hore Ruthven. 

 

Yes Mr F, I am indeed a former Guardsman. I was a Piper (my avatar is my own capstar) in 2SG in the early to mid 1980's, and was mostly attached to RF and later F Company. Glad you 'enjoyed' you attachment to the Battalion.

 

 

[TEW]

The two sitting side by side almost look identical. Slight age difference is all I see. I noticed similarities between the two and others earlier in this topic.  I wonder if they all aspired to the same look.

TEW

[TwoEssGee]

8 minutes ago, TEW said:

The two sitting side by side almost look identical. Slight age difference is all I see. I noticed similarities between the two and others earlier in this topic.  I wonder if they all aspired to the same look.

TEW

 

You wouldn't have said that if you could see who was sitting to Heyworth's right...

 

 

Edited 30 September , 2020 by TwoEssGee

[TEW]

Ah, but he's been caught off guard (sorry). Had he been concentrating, face forward with stiff upper lip he wouldn't be that different.

TEW 

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, TwoEssGee said:

Because of the bearskin and curb chain obscuring part of his face I'm not 100% certain of the identity of the SG officer in the colour photo, but I am inclined to agree that the jawline and moustache make it more likely to be Major Hore Ruthven. 

 

Yes Mr F, I am indeed a former Guardsman. I was a Piper (my avatar is my own capstar) in 2SG in the early to mid 1980's, and was mostly attached to RF and later F Company. Glad you 'enjoyed' you attachment to the Battalion.

 

 

I agree that the curb chain and bearskin tend to obscure features to some degree, but felt that enough was visible when viewed together with his height and breadth of chest to be fairly confident that, given the DSO, it was most likely Hore-Ruthven.

 

We were treated very well by Right Flank, respected, and treated as part of the company.  I was deeply impressed.

Edited 30 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

7 hours ago, TwoEssGee said:

You wouldn't have said that if you could see who was sitting to Heyworth's right...

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by TwoEssGee

Is that ........Mr B. of this parish????????????

@Steven Broomfield

Edited 30 September , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[gmac101]

Thanks to all who've helped I've tried to pull everything together in the attached PDF.  Any mistakes are mine and please don't hesitate to point out any error.

 

All three served in the Great War and survived - they are;

 

Major Walter Patrick Hore-Ruthven DSO 

 

Lt Colonel Harry Lawson W Lawson TD

 

Major John Chaytor Brinton DSO

 

The photo was most likely taken in 1909 at Ascott House nr Wing in Buckinghamshire the childhood home of the photographer Lionel De Rothschild who served with Lt Col Harry Lawson 

 

It was probably taken on the 16th May 1909, the date when the Secretary of War Richard Haldane visited to award the TD to Lt Col Lawson.

 

 

 

 

LdR.pdf