ALL artillery fans go stand in the corner

[BIFFO]

I am slowly plodding my way through 13th batt WR wd, and have just found this,so it was  our artillery chappies wot shot the virgin NOT those norty Bsche

[AOK4]

31 minutes ago, BIFFO said:

I am slowly plodding my way through 13th batt WR wd, and have just found this,so it was  our artillery chappies wot shot the virgin NOT those norty Bsche

 

Yes of course, the virgin was destroyed when the Germans were holding Albert. This is well known (at least I thought so). Of course, a lot of the British-minded visitors tend to overlook this.

[ianjonesncl]

One wonders if the event is recorded in any British Artillery War Diary ?

[Sepoy]

I wonder what was said to the Gun Crew concerned? A pat on their backs or "the repair of that is coming out of your pay!"

Sepoy

[John(txic)]

Had I been the CRA I'd have offered a bonus to the Battery that brought it down!

[Ron Clifton]

My understanding is that the tower was deliberately brought down by the British, to deny its use to the Germans as an observation post. As AOK4 has pointed out, Albert was in German hands at the time.

 

Ron

[Alan24]

It was said that whichever side managed to finally knock it down, would lose the war.

As Ron said, it was finally bought down by the british.

[ianjonesncl]

56 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

My understanding is that the tower was deliberately brought down by the British, to deny its use to the Germans as an observation post. As AOK4 has pointed out, Albert was in German hands at the time.

 

Ron

 

If it was a deliberate act then the target would be allocated to a unit. I suspect a Siege Battery, so potentially recorded in Commander Heavy Artillery / RGA Brigade /  Battery War Diary.

 

It would be interesting to find who fired the rounds.

 

 

[ianjonesncl]

9 hours ago, Sepoy said:

I wonder what was said to the Gun Crew concerned? A pat on their backs or "the repair of that is coming out of your pay!"

Sepoy

It was probably a Battery target, so six detachments each claiming they fired the rounds should a pat on the back be order of the day. And should it be required to come out of their pay, six detachments each vehemently denying it was them.

 

 

Edited 20 August , 2020 by ianjonesncl

[ianjonesncl]

19 hours ago, BIFFO said:

I am slowly plodding my way through 13th batt WR wd, and have just found this,so it was  our artillery chappies wot shot the virgin NOT those norty Bsche

 

Biffo

 

Which Division and Corps were the Battalion part of on 16th April ?

 

Ian

[Ron Clifton]

where13welsh.txt

[ianjonesncl]

21 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

where13welsh.txtUnavailable

Ron

 

Many thanks however the attachment has 'misfired' .

 

The upgrade gremlins have made the attachment unavailable.

 

Ian

[Ron Clifton]

Ian

 

I tried to post this yesterday in the normal way, but was told to attach a file. The message also said that .txt files could be attached!

 

Here is the plain version:

On 16 April 1918 13/Welsh were in 114 Infantry Brigade, 38th (Welsh) Division, in reserve with V Corps, Third Army. The division does not appear to have been directly involved in either March or April with the German spring offensive.

 

Ron

[ianjonesncl]

3 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

On 16 April 1918 13/Welsh were in 114 Infantry Brigade, 38th (Welsh) Division, in reserve with V Corps, Third Army. The division does not appear to have been directly involved in either March or April with the German spring offensive.

Ron 

 

Many thanks. I have checked WO-95-757-2 War Dairy Commander Heavy Artillery V Corps and it looks like the allocation is 89 Brigade RGA supporting 17th Div. and 17 Brigade / 62 Brigade RGA supporting 12 Div. This would indicate that 38 Div. was not in the line, so the entry in the 13th WR is intriguing. #

 

It also looks like 58 Brigade RGA which includes 12inch / 15 inch / 18 inch [???], could be useful for shelling buildings.

 

Just trying to place where the RGA Brigades / Batteries to see who could have fired the rounds,

 

Ian

 

Edited 21 August , 2020 by ianjonesncl
.

[Wexflyer]

Shouldn't all this be in the main part of the forum?

[kenf48]

58 minutes ago, Wexflyer said:

Shouldn't all this be in the main part of the forum?

 Moved to Great War Chat

[ianjonesncl]

40 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 Moved to Great War Chat

 

[ianjonesncl]

On 19/08/2020 at 16:02, BIFFO said:

I am slowly plodding my way through 13th batt WR wd, and have just found this,so it was  our artillery chappies wot shot the virgin NOT those norty Bsche

 

It certainly was "our artillery chappies wot shot the virgin". It was in fact 57 Siege Battery with their 8 inch howitzers (WO 5494 - Allocation of Units) who were under command of the 89th Brigade RGA, who brought the tower down at 3.36pm on 16th April 1918. 

 

The 89th Brigade War Diary (WO-95-480-2) records;

 

15-April-1918 "During day ……. (57 S.B.) 10.26 to 12.18 pm 72 rounds ALBERT CHURCH - 5 ok's on tower, but not brought down. Shoot stopped owing to poor visibility. (Enemy machine gun used to fire from the tower)"

 

16-April-1918 "During day 57 S.B. continued to shoot on ALBERT Cathedral & at 3.36 pm the tower fell. 179 rds were fired in all at the Cathedral, 17 ok s being obtained."

 

 

 

 

[ianjonesncl]

It would seem it maybe a case of blame the Germans rather than admit it was British shells that resulted in the Virgin Mary being brought down.

 

Photo Caption: Albert Cathedral where statue of Virgin Mary hung amid the ruins 'til felled by Hun shells.

 

[Ron Clifton]

16 hours ago, ianjonesncl said:

It also looks like 58 Brigade RGA which includes 12inch / 15 inch / 18 inch [???], could be useful for shelling buildings.

The 18-inch howitzer was developed towards the end of the war, but none of them actually saw action in France. I think that the sole remaining specimen is at Fort Nelson at Portsmouth. There was an interesting TV documentary a few years ago about transporting it to Belgium as part of an international exhibition.

 

Ron

[AOK4]

1 hour ago, Ron Clifton said:

The 18-inch howitzer was developed towards the end of the war, but none of them actually saw action in France. I think that the sole remaining specimen is at Fort Nelson at Portsmouth. There was an interesting TV documentary a few years ago about transporting it to Belgium as part of an international exhibition.

 

Ron

 

You mean to the Netherlands? https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britains-biggest-gun-aims-for-holland

[Alan24]

You can hear about the hanging virgin from a man who was there.

Listen to this link at 12 mins 18 secs in. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80023047

The context is that the man was in 125 HB outside Albert in May 1916.

 

Alan.

[mebu]

Can see why they did it: if you visit Henencourt, which was a strongly defended locality, with a reasonably clear sky you can fairly easily see the Golden Virgin, about 5 miles distant. If we could see them....

 

Peter

[ianjonesncl]

25 minutes ago, mebu said:

Can see why they did it: if you visit Henencourt, which was a strongly defended locality, with a reasonably clear sky you can fairly easily see the Golden Virgin, about 5 miles distant. If we could see them....

 

Peter

Looks like they did a reasonable job.

 

[Ron Clifton]

4 hours ago, AOK4 said:

 

You mean to the Netherlands? https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britains-biggest-gun-aims-for-holland

Yes, quite right. My apologies.

 

Ron