ALL artillery fans go stand in the corner

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

 

My grandfather says this in his diary, written between 1919 and 1928 (probably mostly towards the beginning of that period, I think):

 

The Church of Notre Dame de Brebières was famous for its Virgin Statue, and known to nearly all British troops. The brick belfry was 200 feet high, and was surmounted by a copper dome on which stood a gilt statue of the Virgin 26 feet high, holding the infant Jesus in her arms. Early in the War a shell struck the top of the dome and burst against the socle of the statue. The base gave way but did not entirely collapse, the statue overturning and remaining suspended in mid-air. Forseveral yearsit remained there and there was a saying that “The War will end when the Virgin Statue of Albert falls”. The Spring Bombardment of 1918 completed the ruin of the Church. The belfry collapsed carrying with it the Virgin. Actually I was told by Watson – a 2nd Lieutenant of the 2nd Howitzer Battery – that their Battery actually knocked the Virgin down in a competition with another Battery, this shoot costing some thousands of rounds.

 

 

[Alan24]

1 hour ago, ianjonesncl said:

Looks like they did a reasonable job.

 

 

This is the 'Before' picture

[ianjonesncl]

54 minutes ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

 Actually I was told by Watson – a 2nd Lieutenant of the 2nd Howitzer Battery – that their Battery actually knocked the Virgin down in a competition with another Battery, this shoot costing some thousands of rounds.

 

 

Lancashire Fusilier

 

Any idea which unit the "2nd Howitzer Battery" refers to ?

 

Ian 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Apologies, but that's all my grandad says - I was hoping that someone on this forum would know which unit was indicated. Having said that, I have just done another search of his diary to see whether he mentions Watson anywhere else, and have found that he spent some time with a Watson at No 74 General Hospital in Trouville in June 1918 recuperating from POU, which I think must be the same Watson, as there he says he was "a Gunner from the 2^nd Siege Battery R.G.A.". Is that more help?

[ianjonesncl]

13 minutes ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

"a Gunner from the 2^nd Siege Battery R.G.A.". Is that more help?

Certainly is - one to follow up on. 

 

[Ron Clifton]

2nd Siege Battery was equipped with six-inch howitzers, and was part of the original BEF of August 1914. In March 1918 it was under Fifth Army as part of 85 (Mobile) Brigade RGA, whose War Diary can be downloaded free from the National Archives website. Here is the reference:

WO 95/479 85 Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery 1917 Apr. - 1919 Feb.  
You will probably need to add the suffix /1 as there are several diaries in the same box.

 

Ron

[ianjonesncl]

29 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

2nd Siege Battery was equipped with six-inch howitzers, and was part of the original BEF of August 1914. In March 1918 it was under Fifth Army as part of 85 (Mobile) Brigade RGA, whose War Diary can be downloaded free from the National Archives website. Here is the reference:

WO 95/479 85 Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery 1917 Apr. - 1919 Feb.  
You will probably need to add the suffix /1 as there are several diaries in the same box.

 

Ron

Ron

 

Many thanks. I believe Fifth Army was South of the Somme so seems unlikely that 2 Siege Battery was engaging Albert. I have looked at the allocations in V Corps Heavy Artillery and can not see any reference to 85 HAG or 2 Siege Battery.

 

Looks like ot could be another unit.

 

Ian.

 

Ian

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

I have had a look at WO95/479/7, which is the only War Diary for 2 Siege Battery that I can find in the National Archives covering the relevant period. Apologies if there are other documents that I have missed. Anyway, the one I have downloaded is unlike any other unit War Diary that I have ever seen, in that it seems to be the personal diary of a man in charge (un-named), merely noting where he was and who he saw on any particular day. While some of the contents are fascinating, I get  little sense of where his guns were and what they were firing at. However, it is worth noting that, following the beginning of the German Offensive on 21st March (when he was at Noyon), they moved to Montdidier, and then on 24 March he was billeted at "Beaumetz (Somme)" near Bernaville. He writes as though he was with IX Corps at that point.

On 26 March, still writing as though he was with IX Corps, he says that he inspected a proposed line form "North of Arras to Pas", visited Doullens, and met a signaller at Saulty, returning (to Beaumetz) by Marieux and Beauquesne.

On 27 March he visited his men along the "line from the Somme to Pas", and thought them "splendid", though comments that they must have been tired from continuous fighting. He says that on that day they learned that the Germans had entered Albert.

On 28 March he went to look for battery positions "behind the line Pas to Amiens-Doullens road". The following day he was reconnoitring battery positions "from near Flixecourt to Beauval", and the day after he was reconnoitring battery positions "from near Saulty to Fresnicourt near Bouvigny"..

He was in Beaumetz until 2 April (when he went north to Locre in Belgium), but doesn't refer to Albert apart from on 27 March as mentioned above. Nevertheless, the point is that his Siege Battery seems to have been in the right general area for firing on Albert at the relevant time.

Over to the experts!

Edited 23 August , 2020 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[ianjonesncl]

1 hour ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

I have had a look at WO95/479/7, which is the only War Diary for 2 Siege Battery that I can find in the National Archives covering the relevant period. Apologies if there are other documents that I have missed. Anyway, the one I have downloaded is unlike any other unit War Diary that I have ever seen, in that it seems to be the personal diary of a man in charge (un-named), merely noting where he was and who he saw on any particular day.

 

I had a quick look and WO95/479/7 is the only document I can see. Intrigued by the diary being "unlike any other unit War Diary", I downloaded and I see what you mean. 

 

 

[BIFFO]

GWF is for ww1 of all abilities once you get past "yes of course we all knew that" other gwf join in and you learn stuff even a duffer like me,

this is why I like logging on, cant say im a fan of the "latest "upgrade,

still regrets I have a few but then again to few to mention(quick some one grab a pencil)

I do have one regret , my silly health/ docs and my my important bits will NOT let me go and visit  good friends on the WF, never to sit in the cheese factory drinking that beer, still I can keep in touch with WF through good old boys,WD and medals

[mebu]

The line being planned from  Arras to Pas en Artois was the GHQ Line, which crossed the Amiens-Doullens road at Villers Bocage, it was to be the last defence system before the coast. At Beaumetz it was some 20km from Albert, I would have thought this a long shot for a howitzer. 

 

Peter

[mebu]

From about 5 miles away, at Henencourt, adjacent to the artillery OP, the Virgin can be seen quite clearly even without binoculars. (Just left of the modern Millencourt water tower).

[ianjonesncl]

21 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

The Spring Bombardment of 1918 completed the ruin of the Church. The belfry collapsed carrying with it the Virgin. Actually I was told by Watson – a 2nd Lieutenant of the 2nd Howitzer Battery – that their Battery actually knocked the Virgin down in a competition with another Battery, this shoot costing some thousands of rounds.

Looking through the V Corps Heavy Artillery War Diary there is a location list for the end of march that details;

2 Sections 57 Siege Battery location W.4.b10.80 - is attached to 17th. Bde, R.G.A. for tactical purposes only

 

within 17 Brigade RGA is listed  2/1 Lancashire Heavy Battery with 1 gun located at W.5.b.25.15 and 4 guns at Q.37.b.40.50. 

 

Unfortunately the 17 Brigade RGA War Diary seems to only list personnel movements and can not find a war diary for  2/1 Lancashire Heavy Battery.

 

The Lancashire connection does make this a possibility. 

[mebu]

W4 and W5 puts them between Bailleulval and Ransart....not sure about square Q37?

 

Hmm, just looked at map, this would be rather too far north so probably other square W4 & 5.

Edited 23 August , 2020 by mebu

[ianjonesncl]

20 hours ago, mebu said:

Hmm, just looked at map, this would be rather too far north so probably other square W4 & 5.

I think W4 / W5 on 57D.SE places the positions NORTH of ALBERT in AVELUY WOOD situated between AUTHUILLE and MARTINSART.

 

Range 3,330 metres (3,500 yards) plus. It would be a north to south shoot and would require Albert to be in a salient.

[mebu]

That reference - in spring 1918 - puts the guns in what was was then in German hands. 

It is most likely to be well to the west, unfortunately I cannot at present find a suitable map.

[ianjonesncl]

3 minutes ago, mebu said:

That reference - in spring 1918 - puts the guns in what was was then in German hands. 

It is most likely to be well to the west, unfortunately I cannot at present find a suitable map.

The locations must be prior to the Spring Offensive.

[mebu]

The entry above says the map references are for the end of March. 

 

There are 3 'W' squares to consider:  57D  Aveluy   In the marshes, in German hands, unlikely

                                                          51C  Ransart  about 22 KM, a long way

                                                          57E   N of Villers Bocage  also about 22km.

Best option?

 

Peter

 

 

Edited 24 August , 2020 by mebu

[BullerTurner]

Apparently the German legend was whoever made the Golden Virgin fall would win the war!  The French/British believed the opposite.  Looks like the Germans were correct!

 

The statue was replaced on the reconstructed cathedral by an exact replica.  You might say it Roze again...

 

 

Sorry pals, I couldn’t resist it!

[ianjonesncl]

A bit more information:

https://roadstothegreatwar-ww1.blogspot.com/2014/07/western-front-virtual-tour-stop-26.html

 

It looks like Captain FG Petch MC was the person who 'allocated' the target of the Albert Cathedral. 

 

In 1918 I was on the staff of the 5th Corps, Heavy Artillery, and an Army Order had been issued that no more buildings were to be demolished by gunfire. One early morning we had a telephone message from the Infantry Colonel of the Battalion holding the line quite near to the Cathedral to the effect that he was suffering heavy loss from machine gun-fire from the Cathedral Tower, and he asked that we should blow the place to blazes. My General was out on reconnaissance work, and my Brigade Major was absent at the time so I (quite a young Captain) was in charge. Realizing the Army Order and knowing that I should get no satisfaction from Army H.Q., I chose one of the 8-in. Batteries in the Corps, worked out some imaginary trenches well beyond the Cathedral, and then ordered the Major of this Battery to fire a couple of hundred rounds at these imaginary trenches, knowing full well that the line of fire would go clean through the Cathedral!

 

The Major was thrilled with this order and it was duly carried out and the Cathedral Tower and most of the surrounding Cathedral was blown to hell, thus probably saving the lives of many of our Infantry.

 

F. G. Petch, M.C., Vice-President of the Air League, London, E.C.2.

 

The account is consistent with the 89th Brigade RGA War Diary; the problem of of the machine gun is noted in for 15-April-1918  ("Enemy machine gun used to fire from the tower)", 57 Siege Battery conducting the shoot used 8 inch howitzers , and the number of rounds used, 179, is roughly a couple hundred. 

 

It would seem that V Corps Heavy Artillery War Diary did not record the event, the diary having one entry covering the period 15th to 20th April "Again during the last five days little firing has taken place".

Edited 24 August , 2020 by ianjonesncl

[mebu]

Interesting info above.

 

The batteries HQ was sited at Vadencourt, to the west of Warloy-Baillon/Henencourt, according to war diary, which puts the batteries probably in squares area 51C U 28/29. This looks like a very logical place.

 

Therefore the W map references were a little misleading.

 

This also means that the 13th Welsh were also close by, and therefore could most likely have seen the virgin fall.

 

Peter

Edited 24 August , 2020 by mebu

[ianjonesncl]

2 hours ago, mebu said:

The entry above says the map references are for the end of March. 

 

There are 3 'W' squares to consider:  57D  Aveluy   In the marshes, in German hands, unlikely

                                                          51C  Ransart  about 22 KM, a long way

                                                          57E   N of Villers Bocage  also about 22km.

Best option?

 

Peter

 

 

 Peter

 

8 inch howitzer range  12,300 yards (11,250 m).  

 

I think the locations I found are not right.

 

Ian

5 minutes ago, mebu said:

Interesting info above.

 

The batteries HQ was sited at Vadencourt, to the east of Warloy-Baillon/Henencourt, according to war diary, which puts the batteries probably in squares area 51C U 28/29. This looks like a very logical place.

 

Therefore the W map references were a little misleading.

 

This also means that the 13th Welsh were also close by, and therefore could most likely have seen the virgin fall.

 

Peter

 

That seems logical

[DavidOwen]

The thread is being re-opened because it is of interest to a number of members.

 

Please keep it civil and remember the forum rule about respecting fellow members.

[ianjonesncl]

Blog entry which may be of interest.

 

 

[ianjonesncl]

Blog Comment by Lancashire Fusilier

 

19 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Thank you for this interesting blog, drawing together, and adding to,, the thread entitled All Artillery Fans go Stand in the Corner. I was obviously interested in the original thread given my grandfather's comment in his diary, and was going to add a further post had the thread not been locked. In particular, I was going to say to you that I think that the "Lancashire connection" may be a red herring, as my grandfather met Watson when they were both recuperating at No 74 General Hospital, Trouville,. I assume that patients in the hospital would have come from all over Britain - though it is, of course, possible that my grandfather, as a Lancashire men, might have felt an affinity for other Lancashire men.

I like to think that my grandfather's record is accurate, and also that 2nd Lieutenant Watson was telling the truth, though it is very possible that gunners may have been overkeen to claim credit, as commented by you in the thread ("It was probably a Battery target, so six detachments each claiming they fired the rounds should a pat on the back be order of the day. And should it be required to come out of their pay, six detachments each vehemently denying it was them.").

I got distracted in my endeavours to corroborate (or otherwise) 2nd Lieutenant Watson's account by thinking that I had found a War Diary for the correct period for the 2nd Siege Battery, and, worse, misleading myself into thinking we were looking at March 1918 rather than April 1918. Also, I was rather despondent that you said that the Vth Army was further south, and this probably led me not to pay proper attention to Ron Clifton's comment "In March 1918 it (2nd Siege Battery) was under Fifth Army as part of 85 (Mobile) Brigade RGA, whose War Diary can be downloaded free from the National Archives website. Here is the reference:

WO 95/479 85 Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery 1917 Apr. - 1919 Feb."

Anyway, having drawn a blank with the purported 2nd Siege Battery War Diary, I thought I had better go back and see what other clues there were, so finally looked properly at the War Diary suggested by Ron Clifton, and, sure enough, discovered that the 2nd Siege Battery are listed as being with 85th Brigade. Moreover, they were in the area of Albert in April 1918. Moreover, the entry for 16 April 1918 reads:

"The Statue of the Virgin on ALBERT Cathedral was brought down about 3.30 p.m.  this afternoon."

The entry doesn't say that the 2nd Siege Battery was involved, but it was obviously a subject of some interest to the person writing up the diary, as there is no other entry for that day.

2nd Lieutenant Watson is not mentioned by name in the 85th Brigade War Diary so far as I can see, but I don't think that would be unusual for a junior officer.

What do you think? Is there any clue in the 85th Bridade War Diary as to whether the Battery positions would have given a sighting of the Virgin (I am afraid that that is a bit too technical for me)? 

Having got this far, unless anyone proves otherwise, I shall remain convinced that both my granddad and 2nd Lieutenant Watson were right (or was there just a tiny bit of exaggeration with the "thousands of rounds" if 57th Brigade fired only 179??!!).

You may wish to amend your blog just slightly in the light of the above.

ALFBP