The Unknown Soldiers - How Unknown Are They?

[Northern Soul]

To" Northern Soul"

Saw your email about newspaper report of four soldiers buried together and later two

buried as known and two buried as unknown.

1) Have you sent this to CWGC?

2) Have you sent copy of this report to the Regimental Museums of the soldiers listed?

(At least if there is not enough evidence to change headstones, at least there would be

a record with Regimental Records on where and whom the Unknown probably are)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To "PPF"

The CWGC accepted my identification very quickly and erected new headstones to replace the two 'Unknown Soldier' ones out of the four. Actually their response was very fast - just over three weeks from me writing to them. They even notified the next-of-kin of one of them - photo attached (Pte. William Johnson, 1/4th King's Own).

Best wishes.

Andy.

[Paul Reed]

I have some photos of these graves on my other PC, which I will post when I am back at it. Don't know if you have ever seen them Andy since we saw the original headstones?

[Northern Soul]

I have some photos of these graves on my other PC, which I will post when I am back at it. Don't know if you have ever seen them Andy since we saw the original headstones?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please do, Paul.

I have seen them - the last time I was out there with you. I think they had only been changed a couple of months or so before. IIRC one of the Loyals' headstones is still incorrect.

Best wishes.

Andy.

[andigger]

I had to bring this thread back up because I found an interesting grave this weekend, (hopefully I will be able to post a picture soon). Rather than being identified as an Unknown Soldier, I found a grave marked as an Unknown Veteran of the American Revolution. This implies the poor man fought in and survived the war only to fall into obsurity there after. Its an amazing concept, though some how understandable in the 18th century when less accurate records were kept. None the less I found it very peculiar.... as I said I hope to add a picture to this thread soon..

Andy

[tom compton]

dear pals what about my grandad he was killed by a shell in arras town on the 13.4 1917 . he was one of two 6th dorset men killed that day well behind the line. he had a funeral service .so why was his grave lost.is his is grave lost in a cemetry.if so what one .tom

[Terry Denham]

Tom

Graves were lost for various reasons - usually due to later enemy action or the loss of accurate records. Of course his body may have ceased to exist and the funeral service to which you refer was for all those killed at the time.

What was his name?

[tom compton]

dear pal terry .i am a very frustated man we have no grave or photo of edgar tristram 6th dorsets .if you had to guess a cemertery near arras town were he may be buried which one whould you choose he died 13.4 .17 .by arras caves tom

[Terry Denham]

Tom

He may not have been buried in a cemetery - or not in one that exists today. Many temporary cemeteries existed which were later cleared or destroyed. Also, burials tooks place outside formal burial grounds.

However, as your man is on the Arras Memorial (I assume he is either Pte Tristram or Parkes - the only two 6/Dorsets killed on 13.04.17), it suggests his body was never recovered or recovered after the war but not identified.

Without any further information, it is really pointless to guess at a location as it could be anywhere. If you want a focal point for remembrance, the Arras Memorial itself is a peaceful spot (inside the walls) and many who shared his fate lie buried there.

[tom compton]

thanks terry. tom

[Roxy]

Nothwithstanding the fact that time is marching on, if relatives have a wish to visit the last resting place of a loved one, does it do any harm to give them an idea where their family member lies?

I do not suggest that we simply 'name' unknowns or even add 'believed to be' on grave markers but would it not be possible to, in some cases, indicate, other than on the marker, who the unknown may be?

I would have thought that this may be more likely in instances where a number of graves, occupied at the same time by the same regiment, are at present unknown but they are likely to hold known individuals as SAwargraves has suggested.

Roxy

[dfaulder]

There are more than 106,000 British soldiers missing on the Somme. Of these 53,409 are buried as unknown soldiers in CWGC cemeteries. That leaves approx 53,000 who are unaccounted for. More than 207,000 British soldiers fell on the Somme during WW1; so that more than a quarter of them. Please not these figures are for the entire war, and not just for 1916.

Paul,

Is this sort of data readily available? For instance can you access comparable figures for Ypres or even a more closely scoped area/time-period?

On the day my GF died (26/4/1918) the battalion (1/4 Y&L) in which he served reported:

4 Officers and 17 OR Killed (21 total)

Using "Geoff's Search Engine" (http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/search2.php)

I got 32 listed as died that day (presumably including DoW from earlier days)

(I have still to x-ref this against SDGW)

Using CWGC I determined that of the 32, 14 have known graves (which would presumably include most of those who DoW). So 18 don't.

Looking at the Cemetery details of those with known graves there are some references to "Unknowns" from the 1/4th Y&L in particular cemeteries.

I am tantalisingly close to saying "If he has a grave, it is probably (might even express a percentage certainty) one of the unknowns in the following cemeteries ..."

If I had done this earlier I could have taken my late father to a limited number of cemeteries and he would have known that in paying his respects to the unknowns in each of those cemeteries, he had done his best to pay his respects to his father. He might also have taken some comfort from knowing the chance that his father was not "still out there".

I fully support the idea of getting to statements that say a particular "Unknown" is probably one of the following graves ... I would not, however, try and record such speculation on the grave-stones - see if a note can be added to the CWGC database - they were buried as unknowns and unless identified with a high (?) degree of certainty should remain so.

David

[dfaulder]

"southafricanwargraves" kindly provided me with a headstone photograph to a woman "known unto God" - Mikra, Greece . I am convinced that the body is that of Helena Kathleen Isdell, NZ Army Nursing Service. A DNA test comparing hers with a relative would prove it one way or the other but I wonder who would go to the bother of seeking permission to exhume the body ninety years after the event. I, for one, would like to see her name on the headstone for she payed the ultimate sacrifice and it is the least that we can do.

I am (as others have expressed) not sure about exhuming to test DNA.

Presumably you get permission from the surviving NoK of the leading candidate?

What if DNA testing then proves that you are wrong? You have exhumed someone without proper permission!

David

[Michael Johnson]

My wife's great uncle was killed September 3, 1918 on the approach to the Canal du Nord. Given the nature of the area, and the fact that the attack was a success, his body should have been recovered. Dury Mill Cemetery has a row of 102nd casualties, including one unkown of that unit. CWGC notes that he was a large dark man and a scout. Given the makeup of the 102nd I'm tempted to say that he was probably a B.C. or Ontario Indian/Aboriginal/First Nation/Autochton, rather than a Newfoundland butcher.

But there are other Canadian unknowns there, and I feel that one is probably Fred Rose.

[Boreenatra]

Just wondered about unknowns in the UK with CH's...........apart from bodies washed up after ships sinking, what are the main reasons for men being unknown.

Regards Steve

[Michael Johnson]

Given the makeup of the 102nd I'm tempted to say that he was probably a B.C. or Ontario Indian/Aboriginal/First Nation/Autochton, rather than a Newfoundland butcher.

But there are other Canadian unknowns there, and I feel that one is probably Fred Rose.

I've done some checking of the 102nd casualties for September 2/3 who are on Memorials. With one exception (which I can't check online) none of them were bigger than Fred Rose.

So it may be that the unknown 102nd grave is my wife's great-uncle.

[padrenick]

When I take groups to Thiaucourt I always ask how they could have known that the unknowns were Jews. The answers are sometimes fabulous (circumcision being one of the favourites).

You cannot assume religion by circumcision. In the late 19th century and early 20th century the USA and UK practised it widely for new borns especially amongst the middle class 

[healdav]

11 hours ago, padrenick said:

When I take groups to Thiaucourt I always ask how they could have known that the unknowns were Jews. The answers are sometimes fabulous (circumcision being one of the favourites).

You cannot assume religion by circumcision. In the late 19th century and early 20th century the USA and UK practised it widely for new borns especially amongst the middle class 

I always point that out, but it's interesting that people always jump on that.

By the way, when do you go to Thiaucourt and from where? Perhaps we could meet some time. PM me.

Edited 4 January , 2022 by healdav

[padrenick]

Yes I agree No never been to Thiaucourt  I was quoting from comments above