The Unknown Soldiers - How Unknown Are They?

[dycer]

Agreed Clive,

We also have to remember that there are many multi-occupied "Unknown" Soldiers Graves in France.

I just hope my Relative is buried in one.

George

[Jim Strawbridge]

"southafricanwargraves" kindly provided me with a headstone photograph to a woman "known unto God" - Mikra, Greece . I am convinced that the body is that of Helena Kathleen Isdell, NZ Army Nursing Service. A DNA test comparing hers with a relative would prove it one way or the other but I wonder who would go to the bother of seeking permission to exhume the body ninety years after the event. I, for one, would like to see her name on the headstone for she payed the ultimate sacrifice and it is the least that we can do.

[Northern Soul]

Does anyone have any others or should I just keep clogging up this thread?

Keep them coming ! For me, this is one of the most fascinating areas - real detective work.

A few years ago I visited Naves Communal Cemetery Extension with Paul Reed. While I was getting a photo of the headstone of a local casualty he wandered off and had a look at the other headstones in the cemetery. He found one that simply said "A Captain of the King's Own, 26th August 1914." The occupant of this grave is either Captain Hans Sparenborg or Captain Frederick Theobald. There are two other identified officers of the King's Own buried there too and collectively the three of them are mentioned in 'Old Soldiers Never Die', when, retreating through Haucourt(?) Frank Richards mentions he saw the bodies of three King's Own officers lying together in a farmyard. I have collected accounts of the King's Own's operations that day but as yet I am still unable to decide whether the unknown captain is likely to be Sparenborg or Theobald.

Closer to home, there is an unknown airman buried in the local churchyard (WW2). He was one of the crew of a Boulton Paul Defiant from 10 A.G.S. which crashed in the sea nearby but who could not be identified. I know the identity of the aircraft but have yet to find out who the two crew were.

Andy.

[andigger]

This is fascinating to me, to be able to possibly identify the brave soldiers of so long ago. It almost begs the question if you could narrow the possibilites to a reasonable number (about 4) is it worth getting DNA samples from the decendants to make a confirmation to the identity? Of course that would be subject to the families approval. Also who would pay the testing cost.... its all an interesting debate.

I've also heard in the modern day it is highly unlikely that any soldier could go unidentified. Both through meticulous record keeping and DNA.

Andy

[Guest]

There is not now - and certainly was not then, of course - any equivalent to the facility the US has in Hawaii for identifying remains from the Pacific and Vietnam wars and you cannot go digging up thousands of graves to examine the remains and take DNA samples. Therefore, identification of remains continues to be ruled out.

Any "identification" based on processes of elimination is problematical, because the original data may not be reliable. Therefore, you can only be left with a probability, not a certainty.

Even if 99.9% certain, I would not be happy to go naming graves which have stood unknown for 90 years on this basis. I think you can only put a name to a grave based on identification evidence from the body and artefacts such as dog tags, letters, etc. found on the body.

Please, just leave well alone!

[southafricawargraves]

Hi all,

My intentions of this thread were not to dig up graves and get DNA (something CWGC wouldn't allow anyway) or to determine Christian or Jewish faith but rather to narrow down possibilities by pure research.

The original burial records that were made by the army are sometimes quite detailed.

For example I've seen some of these records read - "Unknown Soldier - with knife, fork and spoon, three coins, kit bag partially stamped 12-45, with 44th Cdn Bn hat badge"

and then in the same area an identified soldier with the description:

"Pte. James Cook - 44th Bn, found with hat badge, 10 coins, kit bag marked 12346"

So if we look at James Cook and discover he died on May 6, 1916 and there was one other man from the 44th Bn that died that day and his name was Robert Thompson, reg. # 12345, does it not beg the question that, this Unknown is very likely Robert Thompson, given the partial evidence that was collected but not properly deciphered by an Army Graves registration man some 90 years ago?

Circumstances differ in each situation but you get my drift.

Each of these unknowns although unknown is unique in some way, given where they were found and buried. The Captains of the King's Own is an example example!

All I'm saying is that in some cases we could present strong evidence to support an identification without having to dig up graves, providing researchers had access to burial records. Does anyone know who actually has these records?

Is it CWGC or PRO?

As Jim stated even after all this time if we can give them a proper headstone after all these years do we not owe it to them for their ultimate sacrifice?

Please note, this not a CWGC bashing thread. I am a strong supporter of the CWGC and what they do. I suspect Terry will be jumping in on this thread soon and might inform us of the proper procedure for submitting a proposal for identifying an unknown.

If anyone has any other photos of unknown headstones with evidence behind it to show who they might be I'd sure be interested. I'll post some more WW2 cases soon if no one has any objections.

[Guest]

And all I am saying is that I would not be happy withany headstone based on circumstantial evidence rather than actual identifation of remains.

So, we do NOT agree.

[andigger]

Wow, I am surprised that the mention of digging someone up brought such heated/shocked responses.

I was surprised that it seemed relatively easy to narrow a few graves to possibly being one of up to four people, with some certainty. At that point if the family were interested enough it would seem that they could persue further identification. Much like the 'unknown' US Vietnam soldier. His family had gathered a preponderance of evidence and was ultimately able to reclaim the body of thier lost brother.

Andy

[paul guthrie]

As Terry has said quite a few times identities are determined by MOD and not CWGC. And they do accept circumstantial evidence, witness the case of Lt John Kipling. So there need not be a debate, there is a policy.

There is a strong possibility CWGC, Norm Christie, got it wrong with Kipling but that's beside the point I am making here.

[southafricawargraves]

Hi,

I am not asking CWGC to dig up graves people!

I am not asking CWGC to put up stones based on helter skelter research!

For anyone that has walked CWGC cemeteries you will find in most battlefield cems stones that read "Believed to Be" and the name of the casualty. For whatever reason, based on the identification techniques at the time they (the Army Graves Service) could not make a 100% positive identification and thus the casualty was buried as "Believed to Be".

Other stones read "Known to be buried in this Cemetery", which means that although the graves service at the time couldn't positively identify the soldier, they know for a fact that he was gathered up in the battlefield clearance. This is particularly useful for large bodies of men who cannot be identified uniquely but rather as a group.

Other stones, unless you actually take the time and look really close at the others around it, misidentify the solider buried underneath quite frequently. These are called collective graves. For example: 8 soldiers were found, none identified uniquely, but known to be soldiers 1-8. Headstones then are grouped together and if you look will be alphabetically named from left to right.

At best, short of digging up graves, something I would never want done anyway, we could give that soldier, based on hard research, a headstone that says "Believed to Be".

[Terry Denham]

The chances of anyone correctly identifying an 'Unknown' with sufficient certainty to permit the erection of a CWGC headstone are very slim indeed. As has been indicated above, anything more than one name is not an identification.

There have been examples of this being done with success and there will probably be a few more. Also on the Western Front there are a few examples of headstones inscribed with words to the effect of 'Known to be either X or Y'.

There certainly will never be permission given for any exhumations (I accept that nobody has really suggested this but I thought I would say it anyway).

Even apparently solid evidence can be challenged as with the Kipling case. That controversy is likely to make MoD (for it is they who would decide in the UK) more wary in any future case.

Because we may have an Unknown Corporal and there are two corporals on the appropriate memorial does not make them the only candidates. What if other corporals have been left off the memorial in error? It happens. A process of elimination is not too reliable.

Also, such a project would probably start off with the assumption that what was written on the headstone is correct. It may not be. He may not have been a corporal or British. It is very hard to stay impartial in such quests and we can all too easily 'convince' ourselves that we have sufficient proof when we don't.

I would not want to dampen anybody's enthusiasm if they honestly believe they can do such research. I would support them as much as possible. I am sure we all would. However, it would not be anywhere near as easy as people may think.

Why doesn't someone try it with one of the examples Ralph has posted?

CWGC hold what burial records still exist. Remember that the army did the burying and passed the names to CWGC along with the notification of 'Unknown' graves.

[andigger]

Thanks Terry, I think your explanation brings more reality to the possibility, although Raloh's hypothesis seemed very interesting. I would be very interested to see what someone could make of his example, although we could never be absolutely certian.

Andy

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Ralph

I have just looked through the info. I have on the K.S.L.I.

L/Sgt. Tranter, died of wounds according to Soldiers Died on 4-10-18. This could make him a possibility for the K.S.L.I. Sgt. ? Big ? He may have lost all his ID on battlefield but they could tell he was a Sgt. ?

L/Sgt. Doughty, was killed on 18-9-18, now all the K.S.L.I. who have known graves in Doiran Military Cemetery are buried in the following graves VI.B. 17, 19, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33. VI.C.1 & 2. If the unknown K.S.L.I. Sgt. is amoung these graves then it would suggest L/Sgt. Doughty ??

Annette

[southafricawargraves]

Thank you Terry for your always present level-headedness.

While I admit the identification process would be difficult and having a 100% certain identification would be near impossible, I am suggesting that given enough hard evidence and research, and an examination of the original burial records would likely warrant an eventual "Believed to Be" headstone.

I agree that all the data is not complete, some of it is wrong and so we can never be "for sure", thus the "Believed t Be" headstone as likely the ultimate outcome on any such project.

I'm interested in those headstones that mention "Believed to Be either X or Y", do you have examples?

I'd be interested in knowing if CWGC allows photocopying of the burial records?

[southafricawargraves]

Annette has done what I would have done. Thank you Annette for doing your research! Unfortunately I did not mark down the KSLI sergeant plot # at the time. Something I do now actually but didn't then.

The stone is marked "17" in the bottom right hand corner. What row I don't know.

[Terry Denham]

Ralph

CWGC will allow personal visits to their offices by appointment at non-busy times to look at specific records by people with genuine (as opposed to casual) research interests.

However, this is not an option available to everyone at all times! It is a working organisation after all and not a research facility.

[Northern Soul]

Even if 99.9% certain, I would not be happy to go naming graves which have stood unknown for 90 years on this basis. I think you can only put a name to a grave based on identification evidence from the body and artefacts such as dog tags, letters, etc. found on the body.

Angie999, I would have to disagree, and I cite the following example:

I found this entry in a local newspaper concerning Private William Johnson of the King's Own. It was written to his parents by a Chaplain of the 14th Div.;

“ It is my sad duty to write to you of the burial of a soldier whose home address, as appeared from a letter in his pocket, was at 1, Moor Moss, Haverigg. I found him lying dead in the trench, together with Ptes. Wadsworth and Motterham, South Lancashires, and Pte. Leck, of the Royal Lancasters. We gave him a Christian burial and put up a temporary cross to register the exact spot so that it could be found again. There was nothing we could find to identify him with, but after receiving this letter will you write to me and tell me his full regimental number so that I can put it properly on the cross and inform his regiment? I am afraid that what I write to you must be a great and grievous loss. May God help you to bear it.”

Eventually I found the graves of Privates Leck and Mottram and between them lay two unknown soldiers, one of the King's Own, the other from the S. Lancs. They had all been found buried together - probably in the late 1930's as all four had, by that time, been commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial. 80+ years after they had been killed, the graves of Ptes. Wadsworth and Johnson were identified.

It doesn't always need DNA or personalised effects.

Andy.

[andigger]

Andy.. I tend to agree with your premise that in some cases relative certian can be ascertained. However in your example, presumably the parents wrote back to the Chaplain. What is interesting is that the other unknown grave could be the previously identified Pte Wadsworth. Also since the bodies of Wadsworth, Motterham, and Leck were identified at the time, why would their names have appeared on the Thiepval Memorial to the Missing? It seems that there are several opportunities for either holes in record keeping or other uncertainty might raise questions on this otherwise obvious case.

Yes I am playing the devils advocate in this..... Andy

[Guest jumberly]

Off on a tangent here, but it’s got me thinking. If ‘we’ know how many men are missing in a specific war area, such as the Somme, and we know how many graves are marked ‘Known unto God’ in that area. Is it possible to work out how many are still out there in the fields?

Just a thought.

[Paul Reed]

There are more than 106,000 British soldiers missing on the Somme. Of these 53,409 are buried as unknown soldiers in CWGC cemeteries. That leaves approx 53,000 who are unaccounted for. More than 207,000 British soldiers fell on the Somme during WW1; so that more than a quarter of them. Please not these figures are for the entire war, and not just for 1916.

[Andrew P]

Next I have a real mystery.

Cairo War Memorial Cemetery, Egypt.

An Australian Soldier Feb. 1, 1916.

I can't even find a soldier who comes close to a possiblity. Anyone have any ideas?

I can only find 4 Australian soldiers who died on the 1st of February 1916.

Henry Cawley is buried in Rookwood Cemetery in NSW, George Briggs of the AAMC & James Richmond of the 18th Bn are buried in Cairo War Memorial Cemetery while James Saunders of the 26th Bn is buried in Tel-El-Kebir Cemetery.

The two that are buried in Cairo War Memorial Cemetery have the grave references of D.293 & D.294

[Auimfo]

I'm a little more moderate on this topic and subscribe to parts of both sides of the debate. I believe that if an unknown grave can be reasonably identified to one particular person then it should be named. However, in the case of a grave being narrowed to two or more possibilities then it should remain 'unknown' - but perhaps a register could be kept recording these possible details i.e. an addendum to the CWGC.

No official agency should be expected to be responsible for the research into these unknowns as the task is far to vast. It must still be left to relatives and individual researchers at a cost born by themselves.

The important question is what burden of proof should be required before an unknown grave is named? A friend of mine posed an interesting theory regarding this point -

As long as there is a reasonable assumption of identity then go ahead and name it. If the odd one happens to be incorrect, what does it matter? Originally the person in the grave and the person now naming it were both unknown but now one is still unknown and the other given a place of honour. Rememberance is the key issue and now this 'named' soldier has an individual memorial remembering his sacrifice. Is it that important that he actually reside there and who's ever going to know anyway.

I'm not sure if I subscribe to that theory, but I can see the point he's making. He's saying that ensuring we 'remember' is far more important that identifying a specific plot of earth. Something to mull over I suppose.

Tim L.

[southafricawargraves]

This just came in from one of our volunteer photographers.

An Unknown Captain - A South African Regiment" - from London Cemetery and Extension, Longueval, France.

While the original cemetery was quite small it was greatly enlarged after armistice. But given the area and dates from which most of these graves would date from, there is a few possibilities that CWGC can provide from the Thiepval Memorial.

BURNE, Captain, BASIL ERNEST, 2nd Regt. South African Infantry. 12th October 1916. Age 25. Son of William and Lucy Mary Burne, of 564, Stamford Hill Rd., Durban, South Africa. Also served in German South West Africa in Durban Light Inf Pier and Face 4 C

COOK, Captain, GEORGE THORNHILL, 3rd Regt. South African Infantry. 11th July 1916. Age 41. Son of Mr. J. Thornhill Cook and Mrs. S. S. Cook, of 36, St. Mark's Rd., East London, Cape Province, South Africa Pier and Face 4 C

CREED, Captain, HAROLD ELVEY FREDERICK, 2nd Regt. South African Infantry. 15th July 1916. Age 35. Son of M. A. Creed and the late Elvey S. Creed; husband of Olive F. Creed, of Bloemfontein, South Africa Pier and Face 4 C

HAHN, Captain, ERNST ALBERT LINSINGEN, "D" Coy. 1st Regt. South African Infantry. 16th July 1916. Age 28. Son of the Rev. C. Hugo Hahn, late of Paarl, Cape Province, and Annie Hahn (nee Von Linsingen), of "Delville", Gordon's Bay, Cape Province. Also served in Egypt (Senussi Campaign) Pier and Face 4 C

MILLER, Captain, GEORGE JOHN, 1st Regt. South African Infantry. 16th July 1916. Age 35. Pier and Face 4 C

SULLIVAN, Captain, ALFRED AMORY, 2nd Regt. South African Infantry. 12th October 1916. Age 34. Son of Barry Sullivan; husband of Marion Louie Sullivan, of 35, Ditton Rd., Surbiton, Surrey. Served in the South African Campaign Pier and Face 4 C

[Paul Reed]

This just came in from one of our volunteer photographers.

An Unknown Captain - A South African Regiment" - from London Cemetery and Extension, Longueval, France.

While the original cemetery was quite small it was greatly enlarged after armistice. But given the area and dates from which most of these graves would date from, there is a few possibilities that CWGC can provide from the Thiepval Memorial.

Actually, in the Extension, there are graves from as diverse locations as Armentieres and the Chemin des Dames - so, unfortunately, it does not mean that a grave there is necessarily someone who fell on the Somme.

This is one of the problems with this type of research.

[PFF]

To" Northern Soul"

Saw your email about newspaper report of four soldiers buried together and later two

buried as known and two buried as unknown.

1) Have you sent this to CWGC?

2) Have you sent copy of this report to the Regimental Museums of the soldiers listed?

(At least if there is not enough evidence to change headstones, at least there would be

a record with Regimental Records on where and whom the Unknown probably are)