southafricawargraves Posted 21 February , 2005 Share Posted 21 February , 2005 Hi All, Like many of you that have walked through countless cemeteries I have always found a special place in my heart for those that were never found or those that were never identified. I have always felt a strong attraction to those headstones that say the ever familiar words "An Unknown Soldier - Known Unto God". Others will know better than I in regards to battlefield clearance and how some cems remained small and others were created or enlarged after the armistice. This thread is about those men (or women) who lie in those cems today but for whatever reason at the time, remain unknown to this day. I strongly believe that in today's day and age of internet resources, hundreds of researchers and historians and the ability to decipher who was where and at what time we should be able to identify a few of these men or at the very least say "the man here could only be one of these three men". So although there are "Unknown" now and too many that see that headstone, we should be able to say well he isn't as Unknown as we think he is. In this thread I will post headstones photos and possibilities to whom the man who lies in that plot could be. Maybe we might just identify one or two of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 21 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2005 A British Private of the Great War - Name Unknown Doiran Military Cemetery, Greece. Not exactly much information, but he obviuosly didn't die on the Western Front. So our possibilities would narrowed to those who are listed on the Doiran Memorial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 21 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2005 Same applies here. "A British Corporal of the Great War - Name Unknown" Doiran Military Cemetery, Greece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 21 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2005 However we now have an unknown who is better identified. "An Unknown Corporal of the South Lancashire Regiment" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 21 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2005 The names of the possibles from Doiran Memorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 21 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2005 ...and the last two possibles. Making 4 possibles who this man could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 21 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2005 Next we have a Sgt. of the King's S.L.I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 21 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2005 and the possiblities from the Doiran Memorial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 21 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2005 Moving out of the Doiran Military Cemetery and into the Karasouli Military Cemetery in Greece, I found one the most unusual headstones I have ever photographed. This is one to an "Unknown Muleteer of the Great War" Does anyone know here the Macedonian Mule Corps are commerated on memorials? As all the rest of the MMC in this cemetery date from September & October 1918 this man would likely be from same time period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 21 February , 2005 Share Posted 21 February , 2005 Ralph I've no wish to be a complete wet blanket here, but...... .......I now find it more frustrating that we can probably pin down, say, the South Lancs Cpl to one of four men. But we'll never know which he is. I think I'd rather have not known at all. Personal view and I'm sure others may not agree with me. But.... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 21 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2005 Next I have a real mystery. Cairo War Memorial Cemetery, Egypt. An Australian Soldier Feb. 1, 1916. I can't even find a soldier who comes close to a possiblity. Anyone have any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 21 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2005 Port Said War Memorial Cemetery, Egypt. This one is pretty straight forward. Does anyone know how many men died on the SS Tatarax 10 August 1918? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Some years ago the bodies of three Scottish Highlanders who had recently found at Deerlijk (spelling?) I saw some rather compelling evidence of who they were. IIRC only three missing men of that Regiment could have been found where these bodies were found. Anyone know the outcome of this? Were the three Highlanders placed under named stones by the CWGC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 22 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Now I know this is the Great War Forum, but this is one from WW2. This is in: Thanbyuzayat War Cemetery, Myanmar. There are 20 of headstones all the same in two rows. The CWGC gardener said they found a plane in the jungle years ago and found these twenty men. I have identified 25 possibilities for these 20. They are as follows: The names of the QRR men that died and went missing on that day as per the Rangoon Memorial are as follows. AUBURN, DOUGLAS JOHN Private BASS, LESLIE Private CRANKSHAW, HENRY WALTER Private FINCH, LEONARD Private GOODCHILD, VICTOR JAMES Warrant Officer Class II (C.S.M.) HILLIER, JOSEPH Private JONES, JOHN BRYN ELLIS Private KEMP, RICHARD HENRY BENSON Lance Serjeant MUNT, REGINALD LAUNCELOT Private OLIVER, WILLIAM WALTER Private PRITCHARD, CHARLES EDWARD Lance Corporal RACKETT, GEORGE ALBERT Lance Corporal REED, STANLEY JOSEPH Private REED, WILLIAM STEWART Private SMITH, ERNEST CYRIL Private STOKES, WILLIAM JAMES Private STONE, FREDERICK JOHN Private SULLIVAN, EDWARD JAMES Private SWINCHATT, ALFRED CHARLES Private VICKERY, SIDNEY GEORGE THOMAS Private Furthermore, a fellow researcher told me that included inthis list would be: PATTIE, BRYAN PETER Second Lieutenant Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regt. att'd 1st Bn. The Queen's Royal Regt (West Surrey) At the end of the war 7 Indian Division was sent to Thailand. 1 Queens of that division sent advance parties to Bangkok by air from Burma, with the rest following by sea. One of those planes crashed en route and there were no survivors. The Queens regimental history states that the party consisted of Lt. Pattie and 19 men. Lt. Pattie was an officer of the Royal Fusiliers serving with 1 Queens. The RAF men are as follows. BROWN, JOSEPH Aircraftman 2nd Class Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve ROSS, JOHN MACPHERSON Flying Officer Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 117 Sqdn. SISSONS, EDWIN MAURICE Flying Officer Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 117 Sqdn. SQUIRE, ROLAND HENRY TRAVISS Flying Officer Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 117 Sqdn. TRAIL, ERIC WILLIAM Flight Sergeant Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 117 Sqdn. 20 headstones all the same, 25 men missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 22 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Again on the WW2 thread. Here is a grave so detailed that it begs the imagination. A Soldier of the 1939-45 War A Lieutenant The Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment 4th September 1942 El Alamein War Cemetery, Egypt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 22 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Our only possibility that comes even close or is even mentioned on the Alamein Memorial as a possiblity. Name: MARSH, RONALD JENNER Initials: R J Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Lieutenant Regiment: Reconnaissance Corps, R.A.C. Unit Text: 44th (7th Bn. The Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regt.) Regt. Age: 26 Date of Death: 31/08/1942 Service No: 148959 Additional information: Son of Charles Marsh, and of Clara E. Marsh, of Tunbridge Wells, Kent. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Column 19. Cemetery: ALAMEIN MEMORIAL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 22 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Does anyone have any others or should I just keep clogging up this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Ralph I've no wish to be a complete wet blanket here, but...... .......I now find it more frustrating that we can probably pin down, say, the South Lancs Cpl to one of four men. But we'll never know which he is. I think I'd rather have not known at all. Personal view and I'm sure others may not agree with me. But.... John True, there will always be "unknowns" that defy specific identification because of the sheer number of possibilities, but on the other hand, much of the basic information of who died where and when is now accessible in a for more easily cross-reference-able (!) way than was available to the I/CWGC at the time of burial. Theorectically it would be possible to take pretty much every name on each memorial and weigh up the odds as to which cemetery they might have ended up in, had they been recovered but not identified, and by the same token the reverse is true for the unknown burials, i.e. there will be a finite number of men that each would "could" be. And obviously in the cases of partial ID the odds are furthure reduced. That said, also have to acknowledge that there must be a lot of existing mis-identifications, which could be uncovered in such an exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 I'm in agreement with Nick. In an age which is rich in information, plus resources and people to analyse it, we could revisit every "unknown" and carry out an analysis of what is actually known. These are things which weren't necessarily available at the time of burial and battlefield clearance. I was reminded of some of the complexities when I read some of the stories of possible mis-identification on http://www.cwgc.co.uk/ SN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 I am told, but I am not utterly certain that in US cemeteries when it says 'unknown' and has a Star of David' that it is in fact an example of political correctness. Apparently, someone worked out that 7% (I think) of all soldiers and casualties were Jewish, so 7% of all the unknowns got a Star. When I take groups to Thiaucourt I always ask how they could have known that the unknowns were Jews. The answers are sometimes fabulous (circumcision being one of the favourites). Does anyone know if this story is true or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 It has just occurred to me that I have a marvellous example of the sheer number of queries that must have eventually driven the army mad. The body of a French soldier was found in the forest in the south of Luxembourg in late 1914. He was buried in one of the towns in the south. At the end of the war he was disinterred and the gendarmerie searched the body for some ID. They found that he had his regiment number on his tunic and a business card in his pocket. So they wrote to the regiment; let's say the 248th (I forget the exact details) and asked about Mariaut No. 5486 (say). Back came the answer from the 284th saying that Maraux No. 4856 was alive and well and discharged! The report they got back is in the National Archives and is interesting as it is a scrap of paper torn from a small ringbound notebook, written in manuscript and sent from hand to hand each writing something on fron, back, sideways, you name it. Most of the comments are undated. I had to look at it for a couple of hours to get near the chronology. And remember this was not just an internal memo, but the official reply. The man is now buried in a proper grave in an area surrounding the Luxembourg unknown soldier in a cemetery in the city under what I assume is his proper name of MARIAUX (say). I wrote this story up for the WFA a few years ago, so you should find the story in the 'Stand To' archive if you are interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Does anyone know if this story is true or not? Yes it is. Ask the ABMC, they'll tell you quite openly! (In fact they sent me a 20 odd page document in 1989 about their overseas responsibilities, in which they also mentioned this (but didn't give any percentages)). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 I am told, but I am not utterly certain that in US cemeteries when it says 'unknown' and has a Star of David' that it is in fact an example of political correctness. Apparently, someone worked out that 7% (I think) of all soldiers and casualties were Jewish, so 7% of all the unknowns got a Star. When I take groups to Thiaucourt I always ask how they could have known that the unknowns were Jews. The answers are sometimes fabulous (circumcision being one of the favourites). Does anyone know if this story is true or not? Yes, this is the case, but it's a practice that long predates the concept of "political correctness." I can't recall the detail, but I'm pretty certain that a higher percentage is applied to WW2 unknowns - possibly one in seven, which IIRC is mentioned in John Garfield's The Fallen. Notably, WW2 unknowns are described as "comrade in arms" rather than specifying soldier, sailor or airman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 WW1 US unknowns were commemorated as Jews in proportion ot their numbers but after WW2 some high ranking graves registration officer proclaimed he would not have one single Christian resting under a Star of David and the practice was abandoned. I will refrain from expressing an opinion on this, it's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Maier Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 If an unknown grave is narrowed down just to two possibilities – the best case short of outright identification – it is still an unknown. And in many cases, the grave contains the best that tired and sickened men could do to reassemble fragments. Unknown is the right and proper description in such instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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