J. Cassidy. India.

[Cassidy Medals]

1 hour ago, ddycher said:

Bob

 

My interest in Dalhousie is with respect to the Devonshire Regt. It was the hill station that the 4th, 5th and 6th Devons used before going off to other theatres. Quick check on the Devon rolls didnt yield any J. Cassidy I’m afraid.

 

Regards

Dave

Hi Dave

 

Thank you for checking the Devonshire Regiment, Battalion rolls, greatly appreciated. I am assuming you are in Devon yourself. What a beautiful place. I was born in Exeter in the 1960's and our family immigrated to Australia in the 1970's. I returned 30 years later in 2000 and caught up with several family relatives, many of whom are now passed. Great memories.

 

Thanks Again

Gaz 

[Bob Davies]

7 hours ago, ddycher said:

My interest in Dalhousie is with respect to the Devonshire Regt.

Hi Dave thank you for your reply and having a look into it. I have never been to India but looking on google maps etc it appears to be a beautiful place high in the mountains with some spectacular views. The whole British Army in India is fairly new to me, very interesting mind you. The search continues for the elusive J Cassidy (pte or cpl) Regards, Bob

[Steven Broomfield]

For anyone interested, I can recommend Peter Stanley's book, Terriers in India. It is about the TF units which went to India in the Great War, but the descriptions of cantonment life and the soldiers' experience in India is universal. A fascinating book.

[Bob Davies]

4 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

For anyone interested

Thank you for this recommendation Steven. @Cassidy Medals Gaz, the closest I can find so far on MICs is Sapper J Cassidy 602215 RE/ 2311477 RC Sigs. There are notes on his MIC referring to India. From a book called "Honour and Fidelity: India's Military Contribution to the Great War 1914-1918" I found a list of units sent to France as part of the Lahore Division. It lists HQ Division engineers and 20th and 24th companies sappers and miners, so I looked under Royal Engineers on the MICs. May I ask @FROGSMILE for his expertise on this please? The MIC may tell us more than I am able to get from it? Regards, Bob.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you for this recommendation Steven. @Cassidy Medals Gaz, the closest I can find so far on MICs is Sapper J Cassidy 602215 RE/ 2311477 RC Sigs. There are notes on his MIC referring to India. From a book called "Honour and Fidelity: India's Military Contribution to the Great War 1914-1918" I found a list of units sent to France as part of the Lahore Division. It lists HQ Division engineers and 20th and 24th companies sappers and miners, so I looked under Royal Engineers on the MICs. May I ask @FROGSMILE for his expertise on this please? The MIC may tell us more than I am able to get from it? Regards, Bob.

 

I'll be happy to help if I can Bob, but I'd need to see the MIC, and also better understand precisely what it is that you are asking?

[Bob Davies]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I'll be happy to help if I can

Hi Frogsmile, here is the MIC, courtesy of Ancestry.co.uk. It is in two bits  but all the writing is shown. Would this be a member of HQ division engineers or one of the 20th/24th companies sappers as listed in my previous post? I know that all soldiers in the army are used as and where needed at the discretion of their superiors. So would it be possible that this is the man we seek? Any ideas on the writing on the MIC? A long shot but easier than finding a thatched roof, somewhere in England ;-) Regards, Bob.

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Hi Frogsmile, here is the MIC, courtesy of Ancestry.co.uk. It is in two bits  but all the writing is shown. Would this be a member of HQ division engineers or one of the 20th/24th companies sappers as listed in my previous post? I know that all soldiers in the army are used as and where needed at the discretion of their superiors. So would it be possible that this is the man we seek? Any ideas on the writing on the MIC? A long shot but easier than finding a thatched roof, somewhere in England ;-) Regards, Bob.

 

According to that MIC the man shown did not serve anywhere overseas other than India.  He served on the North West Frontier (NWF) in 1919 during the war with Afghanistan at that time.  You now need to research which Royal Engineers units deployed in that campaign and what they did.
 

The J. Cassidy concerned became a member of the break away Royal Corps of Signals after it was formed in 1920 which suggests to me that on the NWF he was a member of the Signals Service RE and would have been at the Divisional HQ and involved in the communications effort such as it was.  I imagine that by 1919 that would certainly have involved erecting rudimentary telegraph poles and establishing a telegraph service back to GHQ.  See: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a195401.pdf

 

There is also lots of interesting reading, due to personal accounts and photographs, here: https://kingscollections.org/servingsoldier/categories-and-terms/geographic/region/asia/southern-north-west-frontier

Edited 29 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

26 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

There is also lots of interesting reading, due to personal accounts and photographs

Thank you for all this Frogsmile. I may be sometime! Can you tell us what  HQ Division engineers is. ie how many men and their jobs and out else you can think that they do? Regards, Bob.

 

Edited 29 June , 2020 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you for all this Frogsmile. I may be sometime! Can you tell us what  HQ Division engineers is. ie how many men and their jobs and out else you can think that they do? Regards, Bob.

 

Visual signalling was the primary means of communications for forward control. Large and small flags, heliograph and oil lamps with shutters for night communications were all utilised. Skilled operators could signal between 8 and 12 words per minute.  Telegraph was used for communicating back to the GHQ in Delhi.  That required thousands of miles of telegraph and telephone cable.  Dispatch Riders (DR) had also come into use where terrain permitted and wireless ‘sets’ were also in limited service.

 

As regards the establishment of the signals service units I’m afraid you will have to seek out any relevant establishment tables via the Nafziger collection of OOBs (orders of battle) linked here: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/188544-great-resource-for-oobs/ (the final post by forum member ‘Maureene’ refers).

I’m sorry but I don’t have the time to do this for you, so you will have to trawl through yourself if you require that degree of detail.

 

Here is the official government account which might also have relevant details about communications: https://archive.org/details/dli.csl.6062/mode/2up

Edited 30 June , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

58 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Visual signalling was the primary means of communications for forward control

Thank you again for sharing all this valued knowledge/advice Frogsmile. Back to work now so it may take some time :-) Funny I was just going to look at Maureenes' OOBs post to see what it meant. Regards, Bob.

[A Sanyal]

On 14/06/2020 at 07:21, Cassidy Medals said:

Hi

 

I have this photo of J. Cassidy, serving in India. I'm uncertain of the period perhaps 1900 - 1918?

 

There were three other postcards with this one, all scenes from Dalhousie, India.  

 

I'm trying to work out what unit Cassidy was with and ultimately who he might be? (IE. Regimental No.)

 

Can anyone assist?

 

Thanks in Advance

Gaz

 

Sir,

 

I'm working on Dalhousie for a while now, with particular reference to the Convalescent Depot/ Station Hospital, Units in Dalhousie, and the Churches. Do the other postcards with you have any pictures of the Hospital or any of the Churches, please?

 

Thanks and regards,

 

AS  

[michaelpi]

St John's Cburch........

 

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/digital/api/singleitem/image/p15799coll123/78880/default.jpg?highlightTerms=images%20dalhousie

 

There are other images on that site also, I recall

[A Sanyal]

5 minutes ago, michaelpi said:

St John's Cburch........

 

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/digital/api/singleitem/image/p15799coll123/78880/default.jpg?highlightTerms=images dalhousie

 

There are other images on that site also, I recall

Yes, there are many images. 

 

The road intersection in front of the St John's Church in the image (link you posted) was known as The Square!  https://www.25thlondon.com/pccalbum/60.html 

 

I have found wide landscapes pictures of the hills which show the Hospital buildings, but no good ones of the Hospital itself.

 

Thanks for the help, 

 

Regards

AS

[michaelpi]

This, on ebay??? Just visible through the trees.

 

https://www.befr.ebay.be/itm/192889386331?hash=item2ce91a755b:g:QukAAOSwTLpbOMom

Edited 24 June , 2021 by michaelpi

[A Sanyal]

2 minutes ago, michaelpi said:

This, on ebay??? Just visible through the trees.

 

https://www.befr.ebay.be/itm/192889386331?hash=item2ce91a755b:g:QukAAOSwTLpbOMom

Good God! How?!!

Words fail me. 

The cookhouse (chimney visible) was the "Cookhouse Asst Surgeon Second Class" and the adjacent taller building (behind it) was the "Indian Section Hospital". Opposite was/ is the "Store Keeper's Store"; all were built in 1896. The building in front in the picture was the "Hospital's Servants Quarters" (1888). Behind was the "Station Hospital & Family Ward" (Double storey, 1872), with the upper storey removed sometime between 1910 and 1930 as per an article by Lt Col JEM Boyd, MC. (https://militaryhealth.bmj.com/content/71/5/346 . I can trace no records of when this happened, including in the Notebook of the Cantonment Magistrate Dalhousie (opened in 1917 with some retrospective entries wef 1907 as part of history), which merely mentions "Additions and alterations are now being made (1916-17).) To the right in the picture, one can see part of the Tennis Court, with Nursing Sisters' Qrs in close vicinity. Through the gap in the trees on the right one can see the top of the "Station Hospital and Officer's Ward" (1872).

Thank you so much. 

Regards.

AS.

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, A Sanyal said:

Good God! How?!!

Words fail me. 

The cookhouse (chimney visible) was the "Cookhouse Asst Surgeon Second Class" and the adjacent taller building (behind it) was the "Indian Section Hospital". Opposite was/ is the "Store Keeper's Store"; all were built in 1896. The building in front in the picture was the "Hospital's Servants Quarters" (1888). Behind was the "Station Hospital & Family Ward" (Double storey, 1872), with the upper storey removed sometime between 1910 and 1930 as per an article by Lt Col JEM Boyd, MC. (https://militaryhealth.bmj.com/content/71/5/346 . I can trace no records of when this happened, including in the Notebook of the Cantonment Magistrate Dalhousie (opened in 1917 with some retrospective entries wef 1907 as part of history), which merely mentions "Additions and alterations are now being made (1916-17).) To the right in the picture, one can see part of the Tennis Court, with Nursing Sisters' Qrs in close vicinity. Through the gap in the trees on the right one can see the top of the "Station Hospital and Officer's Ward" (1872).

Thank you so much. 

Regards.

AS.

Did you see this one too: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154390784736

I don’t know if there might be anything here but it seems an interesting collection of 18 images: http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/digital/collection/p15799coll123/search/searchterm/Dalhousie India

Also some personal collections archived here: https://becc.bristol.gov.uk/search/all:records/0_50/all/score_desc/Dalhousie

Edited 25 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[A Sanyal]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Did you see this one too: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154390784736

I don’t know if there might be anything here but it seems an interesting collection of 18 images: http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/digital/collection/p15799coll123/search/searchterm/Dalhousie India

Also some personal collections archived here: https://becc.bristol.gov.uk/search/all:records/0_50/all/score_desc/Dalhousie

Thank you!

We have https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154390784736 , and I had seen the USC collection.

Thank you ever so much for pointing me to the BECC collection.

I am obliged. 

AS.

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, A Sanyal said:

Thank you!

We have https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154390784736 , and I had seen the USC collection.

Thank you ever so much for pointing me to the BECC collection.

I am obliged. 

AS.

I’m pleased to help a little.  I’m sure that there must be more such photos hidden away in private family collections, sometimes without recognition of what’s there, it’s really a matter of tracking them down. The internet has been a wonderful boon in that regard and seems likely to remain so for a long time.  Good luck!

Edited 25 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[michaelpi]

https://www.batesandhindmarch.com/?s=dalhousie&post_type=product

You may have seen the postcards of this wide view of the depot and hospital.....this photograph may have been the original of those postcards. Click on the Khajiar Week 1905 photo. The view of Dalhousie is the second image and shows some nice detail.

   

 

[A Sanyal]

7 hours ago, michaelpi said:

https://www.batesandhindmarch.com/?s=dalhousie&post_type=product

You may have seen the postcards of this wide view of the depot and hospital.....this photograph may have been the original of those postcards. Click on the Khajiar Week 1905 photo. The view of Dalhousie is the second image and shows some nice detail.

   

 

Thank you, most profusely. I hadn't seen this particular photograph. 

Regards,

AS.

 

 

 

[Cassidy Medals]

Hi Guys

Thanks for your activity on this topic....... some interesting photos and comments that's for sure.

After much searching and procastinating...... I have found my old postcards.

Interestingly they were made in Germany.

And a clue that I had overlooked....... J. Cassidy. M.J.I?? or is this H.L.I.  Highland Light Infantry...... What do you think??

Were the Highland Light Infantry at Dalhousi??

Cheers...Gaz  

 

[corisande]

7 hours ago, Cassidy Medals said:

J. Cassidy. M.J.I?? or is this H.L.I.  Highland Light Infantry.

I think that just says

"Best Wishes from J C" the next bit, in another ink, and is I think just a smudge

[A Sanyal]

9 hours ago, Cassidy Medals said:

Hi Guys

Thanks for your activity on this topic....... some interesting photos and comments that's for sure.

After much searching and procastinating...... I have found my old postcards.

Interestingly they were made in Germany.

And a clue that I had overlooked....... J. Cassidy. M.J.I?? or is this H.L.I.  Highland Light Infantry...... What do you think??

Were the Highland Light Infantry at Dalhousi??

Cheers...Gaz  

 

Wow!

As to whether the Highland Light Infantry were in Dalhousie, I have not found the unit mentioned in

1. Army Lists (in Dalhousie).

2. Notebook of the Cantonment Magistrate of Dalhousie (maintained well for the period from 1907 to 1931).

3. Two Registers of Interments of the Civilian and Military Cemeteries (oldest entry of 1865).

4. An old OT Register (opened in 1938) of BMH Dalhousie.

Regards,

AS.

[FROGSMILE]

If a date window can be provided I can check most years to see where HLI were posted at a particular time.

[Bob Davies]

18 hours ago, Cassidy Medals said:

Were the Highland Light Infantry at Dalhousi??

Hi Gaz and all, something did just occur to me! That is the fact that J Cassidy does not necessarily have to have been stationed at Dalhousie. Yes he was obviously in India but it may have just happened that the picture was taken while he was on a job/work there. The 1st Battalion HLI were part of the Sirhind Brigade/Lahore Division. So I would say it is not impossible for him to be a member of the HLI. From memory, I/we looked at a HLI soldier as a candidate for the elusive J Cassidy. Regards, Bob. https://web.archive.org/web/20141012132009/http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/cimh/british india/indian_army_1914.pdf