Trouble at the Menin Gate

[303man]

Yesterday in Ypres wilst visiting Yorkshire Trench about 16:30 ish A car comes screaming up Bargiestraat into factory car park north of Yorkshire trench screams around smashes into mound of dirt rips off exaust yobs get out and then take it in turns to thrash around the car park included in the group 1 girl. Had I known the police number and contacted them they could have been cornered where they were.

They would say they were just having fun.

[bkristof]

2) Does the Belgian society really have much to "fight" this sort of thing?

more than people know Andy,

i know it, believe me...

[armourersergeant]

I hope I am not ever molested at the Menin Gate. I think I might be silly and "have a go" fearing that otherwise my Great Uncle looking down on me from the Gate might think the whole British nation has gone soft. No doubt I will then end up in an Ypres nick !

You wont be alone

Keep the seat warm

regards

Arm.

[stiletto_33853]

Re this recurring trouble, not only in Ypres, but across the continent I have to agree with Des. The law should be allowed to take its course and enforced as it should and was meant to be.

A couple of weeks ago I had a heated discussion with a Police friend of mine re ASBO's and such stating that the Police asked for these extra powers and are not applying them. The answer I got was that they try to enforce them but they have to get through court and nine times out of ten get thrown out. Obviously this is not the answer as it is just not working with our PC and you cannot touch a kid society.

Agreed, a lot of us were probably tearaways when we were younger but I do not remember in my youth hurling abuse at people, wanting to fight the world,theft and so much blatant anti social behaviour. Re the teachers, I am afraid it starts at home, teachers are there to teach and guide the youngsters. There is an interesting article in the Telegraph on 18/2/05 labelled "I'm a teacher, not a playground therapist", see if you can find it on line. Last week there was also an article on one boys behaviour in the NE. It covers 2 pages and makes horrific reading. His offences were listed for just 2004 and went down the whole page until he finally got a detention order.

My personal feelings are that it is time to throw this PC out of the window.

Strike 1: Offend, OK bad boy

Strike 2: 1 more and you go away, no questions

Strike 3: Bye Bye, you get time, and you serve the time you are given , not 50%.

My Police officer friend says that these youths are extracting the urine out of the Police and society in general and they know there is nothing you can do to them.

I am also sick and tired of hearing the excuse "There is nothing for us to do", there are things there for them to do but they want everything laid on a plate for them.

Locally, some parents and teachers set up a series of clubs/ events for youths to have something to do. They abandoned the project after a period of time due to abuse both verbal and physical aimed at the very people who were trying to help them.

I am sorry if this does not go along with some of your views, but time has come to teach them a lesson. Mix in with society and behave in a reasonable manner or forfeit your liberty for a period of time and hang the PC and liberals.

Andy

[armourersergeant]

Andy,

I am in agreement, but we had better beware or this may stray into current politics and we may be moderated, Terry would love that!

regards

Arm.

[Guest]

A couple of weeks ago I had a heated discussion with a Police friend of mine re ASBO's and such stating that the Police asked for these extra powers and are not applying them. The answer I got was that they try to enforce them but they have to get through court and nine times out of ten get thrown out.

Believe me, in my professional life I have experience on the subject. They are not difficult to get in the courts if the groundwork is done, but it is not the police who apply for them, it is the local authority and the police have to make out a case which the Council solicitor is prepared to take on.

In my experience it is often lack of effort and application on the part of the police which stops the case going to court - and if 90% of applications in your friend's area are being lost they should draw the lesson that they need better casework and a Council solicitor who is prepared to send them back to do more work.

There is one other kind of ASBO whichthe police can seek directly and this is where the person is conviced of some criminal offence. They can ask the court at the time to impose ASBO terms relating to the same type of behaviour.

In the area where I work, the Council's success rate in court is 100%.

[Auimfo]

Andy, Arm, Ian,

Let's hope there's two sets of bunks cause that makes four of us. (plus Bubba).

Tim L.

[FredJCarss]

Andy, Arm, Ian, Tim L,

It sounds like a new BEF is going to be formed!!!

Fred

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Andy, Arm, Ian, Tim L,

It sounds like a new BEF is going to be formed!!!

Fred

If you agree with the principle that there should be first diplomacy and then acting, you can note my name for your BEF's Foreign Legion. I am quite convinced that Kristof will join our ranks too.

Erwin

[sandyford]

Angie

I think you are right.

My impression of the ASBOs was that they were quite effective in reducing the kind of behaviour we have been discussing and didn't lead to large numbers of young people in custody.

Certainly, the figures that John Hartley quoted earlier would seem to back that up.

However, legislation needs to be in place for ASBOs in the first place.

Kate

[ianw]

I am all for politely asking the young people to show some respect and b-----r off.

-- as we did with the Kaiser !

By the way is the interior of the Menin Gate technically British territory in a similar way to the cemeteries. I suspect that the forum lawyers will soon disabuse me of the idea that these corners of foreign fields are forever England - but it would be tempting to deliver a kick up the backside to anyone dis-respecting these places irrespective of their nationality.

[Kevin Lynott]

A couple of weeks ago I had a heated discussion with a Police friend of mine re ASBO's and such stating that the Police asked for these extra powers and are not applying them. The answer I got was that they try to enforce them but they have to get through court and nine times out of ten get thrown out.

Believe me, in my professional life I have experience on the subject. They are not difficult to get in the courts if the groundwork is done, but it is not the police who apply for them, it is the local authority and the police have to make out a case which the Council solicitor is prepared to take on.

In my experience it is often lack of effort and application on the part of the police which stops the case going to court - and if 90% of applications in your friend's area are being lost they should draw the lesson that they need better casework and a Council solicitor who is prepared to send them back to do more work.

There is one other kind of ASBO whichthe police can seek directly and this is where the person is conviced of some criminal offence. They can ask the court at the time to impose ASBO terms relating to the same type of behaviour.

In the area where I work, the Council's success rate in court is 100%.

Angie999

Could I ask you to front up and identify your occupation.

It is not only the local council who apply for anti-social behaviour orders and I am afraid to say if it was left to the local authority in my area there would be no anti-social behaviour orders in place.

I am a police officer and an aspect of my duty is monitoring the process of first identifying a subject who may be considered for an application to be made for an individual to be made the subject of an anti-social-behaviour order and then the development of a case by the collation of information and statements etc to present first to the Force Solicitor. As part of that process there is an inital case conference involving probation, social services, the local education authority, the recurring absentee from these meetings are the local authority.

Our force has its own solicitor who sole role is to present the case before the magistrates court for anti-social behaviour order applications.

The anti-social behaviour order after criminal conviction you allude to requires the same amount of evidence to be collated and presented before the court as for the civil case anti-social behaviour orders.

I am sorry to harp on but can I assure the viewers that anti-social behaviour orders do work, if I can illustrate it by two examples local to me which are all too familiar to viewers nationally, two youths living in seperate parts of the town acting like one child crime waves on their respective estates, the long term process is undertaken, one child aged 13 is made the subject to a three year order in October last year, there has not been a single complaint about him since. The second aged 15 is made the subject of a 3 year anti-social behaviour order he immediately breached it and was sentenced to 8 months imprisonment, no more crimes my Asian shopkeepers aren't spat on and abused and his gang of hangers on are dispersed to the four winds, complaints of disorder and reported crime on the estate have fallen by 50%.

Regards

Kevin

PS I don't think they have an ASBO procedure in Belgium