Myrtle Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Things aren't that easy as they seem. When asking and talking to them they simply say: f... off mat the Menin Gate is our territory. Think this free translation of their words just says enough of their mentality. As for fighting we already have seen it and they are not particularly impressed by the police neither. They consider being questioned by the police as a 'act of bravery'. Jacky Jacky Do they use the Menin Gate area for skateboarding ? Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Not this bunch but I have seen it happen in the past. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Jacky Sounds like some detached youth workers are needed. Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 The main problem is not control by the police, but a place for those youngsters to hang around. The Menin gate isn't such a place. But they need an alternative. I often hear the problem: but what can we do? Where can we go to? It isn't because it are a bunch of "punks" they have no right to be somewhere (else, not the Menin gate)... But that is politics again . I qoute myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Bkristof I agree with you. Detached youth workers are useful people, when it comes to making contact with young people, who do not meet in a formal setting. (OK I'm biased because I was one for a few years.) If these youngsters could be encouraged to voice what they require rather than shout insults I would have hoped that the Tourism Department of the town council would be able to find some money to help supply a place for these young people to meet. I saw an excellent programme on television, about a group of lads in the NE of England who decided that they wanted a skateboard park, so what did they do ? they organised the fundraising themselves and got one built. The 17 year old in charge of the fund raising was inspirational although I bet there were older people around who would have dismissed him on sight, as just another "scruffy yob". Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandyford Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Do these young people only hang around the Menin Gate when the ceremony is happening? I believe that an ASBO can also be restricted to certain times of the day, rather than covering all day. When I was in Ypres, last year, one of the things that impressed me was that I saw no sign of behaviour of the kind we are discussing, nor was there graffiti. Obviously it would have been naive to think that none of these things ever happened. As they themselves have said, Ypres is their territory and we are visitors. It is true, as Myrtle and Kristof have said, that young people need somewhere to go and something interesting to do. I know that youth workers visiting the areas where the young people are hanging out to listen to them, (with a dictionary of 'cool' if necessary) is a useful initiative. Also the police themselves organise activities and join in sporting events and outdoor visits with schools and youth organisations. For some children the attraction of the behaviour we are discussing is the very fact that it provokes a strong reaction from us. It's true that these particular children will probably grow out of it in a year or two, and the behaviour described so far is outrageous rather than dangerous. But, just in case others are ready to take their place, it would be good to think that we had some measures, long or short term, to uphold the majority wish for this area to be protected Kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 I know that youth workers visiting the areas where the young people are hanging out to listen to them, (with a dictionary of 'cool' if necessary) is a useful initiative. But, just in case others are ready to take their place, it would be good to think that we had some measures, long or short term, to uphold the majority wish for this area to be protected Kate The youth workers are usually young enough not to need a dictionary The usual way of resolving such issues is for intergenerational work to be carried out in local schools. This creates links between the different generations and leads to more understanding. Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 I think a descend "youth policy" for Ypres can help more than 20 policemen patroling the area... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 The behaviour of these youngsters is a result of the eagerness of our generation to be fashionable. Do's and dont's are forbidden expressions, because too directive. Our idea about the dynamics of a society became so idealistic that we have an incredible lack of sense for reality. A determined short term step by step approach is the only answer: localise the problem, try to find it's roots, look if you can do something on the origins and if this doesn't work: act repressive. This behaviour on the Menin Gate can not be tolerated. If a simple discussion by a youth worker with youngsters and their parents does not work, these people should be send to youth court. If you allow that rules in society can be put aside unpunished, you endanger the society itself. Maybe not politicaly correct, but inspired by the desire to keep our planet a good place to live for everyone. Erwin (expecting to be ececuted within a few replies) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 A determined short term step by step approach is the only answer: localise the problem, try to find it's roots, look if you can do something on the origins and if this doesn't work: act repressive. This behaviour on the Menin Gate can not be tolerated. If a simple discussion by a youth worker with youngsters and their parents does not work, these people should be send to youth court. I agree Erwin, working with such youngsters. So I know were I am talking about. You will not be executed by me pal! But did Ypres already do the effort to do something? I doubt it. It is not the task of the Last Post commity to deal with the youngsters. It is the town itself, with "street workers" (they don't have) or with police, the worst thing to do and as last solution... When we were 20 years ago, a good "kick in the a**" would help too I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Bring back the birch, etc !! Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard_Lewis Posted 20 February , 2005 Share Posted 20 February , 2005 Wondering around the centre of Arras with a few friends we were challenged to 'a fight' by a young local. No provocation on our side, I think he just saw us as foreigners (he asked if we were English, and being Welsh I bravely said 'no'). One of may party told him that the lads in the cemetery up the road could have done with his help over 80 years earlier! He wondered off... Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandyford Posted 20 February , 2005 Share Posted 20 February , 2005 Jacky and Kristof, I think you know that all of us on this forum think that Ypres is a wonderful place to visit, and the kindness and welcome from everyone we meet is a major part of that, which is why the Menin Gate incident was a surprise. Most of us have not experienced the behaviour at the Menin Gate which Alan encountered. We could all share in how upset he must have felt to have this very special experience spoilt, and how insulting it seems to you, who are working so hard to give respect to the soldiers, and to the young soldiers we have come there to remember. However, I suspect that those young men from 90 years ago were not all choirboys either. If we have not seen this behaviour at the Menin Gate, it is obvious that we have seen it, where we come from. Some teenagers can be disrespectful, rude and badly behaved, even if they have lots of facilities, so the Menin Gate teenagers are actually conformists to a certain stereotype. What sort of activities or places are there in the Ypres area for teenagers? It seems that this discussion is about to polarise which will be unproductive. It is possible to have activities for teenagers, out placement youth workers, schools liaison and at the same time systems in place with sanctions to protect the activities of all other groups of society. Kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 20 February , 2005 Share Posted 20 February , 2005 I just don't get it! Why is it that these days we have to 'provide' somewhere for our youth to enjoy themselves. Any lack of 'provided areas' in no way excuses nor gives them the right to engage in behavior of this sort. Whatever happened to initiative. As a child I don't remember considering behaving in this fashion simply because I wasn't given everything I wanted - we simply used our nouse and provided for ourselves without the need to disturb others. Let's be honest - "nothing better to do" is a cop out excuse these kids use to justify their behaviour - and we all seem to be falling for it. Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 February , 2005 Share Posted 20 February , 2005 "Hanging out" is a perfectly normal youth activity which has been practiced for generations and local youths will usually fix on some "hanging out" spot which they begin to feel they "own". You see this on many housing estates where, quite often, it is around the local shops and you then get conflict between the youths and other people trying to use the chippy, the off-license, etc. One solution which has worked in various places is to build a youth shelter in a location agreed with the youths where they can be themselves without this conflict. In conversation several years ago with a Ieper woman of about my age (then early 50s) it was clear that the Menenpoort had been a recoginsed place for young people to meet for many years. When we told her we were going to the last post that evening she replied that when she was young it had been "a good place to meet boys". She wasn't being disrespectful, it wasn't that sort of conversation. There is clearly a need for the authorities to get to grips with this anti-social behavour, but somebody also needs to look at why local youths are adopting this more aggressive attitude and what alternative facilities there are for them, because presumably if they go anywhere else to "hang out" right now there are going to be complaints from residents nearby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 20 February , 2005 Share Posted 20 February , 2005 This issue really boils down to the time-honoured tradition of youngsters being a pain in the proverbial. I know ... I was one! Take for example the building of skateboard parks. It is self defeating. It costs public money (unless the youngsters take up the option already quoted of building their own) and after an initial surge of interest the park will be abandoned as another concrete monument to misunderstanding. The main object of being a boarder is to be seen performing your stunts on the best urban stage. Thus we find our multi-storey car parks etc plagued by young lads who are doing their best to look as if they are from East LA. Building a super-dooper skateboard facility will not end this problem ... it will be treated with scorn by the hard core skaters. That is why they are at the Menin Gate. They are of a generation which takes a certain amount of delight in freaking out their elders. It may have taken 90 odd years for them to intrude on the Menin Gate - which was probably regarded as sacred ground by previous generations - but they are claiming it as their own now. I'm afraid this one will not go away. And just another thing ... boarding craze locally focused on a multi storey car park. It went from guys doing stunts on the ramps and on the top storey ... it has descended to the wee tubes hanging over the edge and spitting on people below. On one occasion they even turfed a shopping trolley over the top narrowly missing a car. Given the sensitivities surrounding the Menin Gate, I would be of the opinion that firm policing will be required. I am not a hang 'em and birch 'em type. But I have covered enough courts and witnessed a steady - and undeniable - decline in behaviour over a 25 year period. You have to know when to take off the kid gloves. 10-15 years ago, parents of kids who were acting in such an anti-social manner would have been ashamed and taken action themselves. Now, sadly, you are much more likely to receive the answer 'f..k off and mind your own business'. Expect little or no help there. Sorry for sounding like Attila the Hun ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 20 February , 2005 Share Posted 20 February , 2005 Des You may be right about the "hard core boarder", but I was in Southport a few month sback. They have a large, modern facility constructed by the Council - it was packed - mainly with boarders but also "hangers out". That was probably the best part of 150 kids doing something useful and enjoyable and not going round annoying old ***** like me. You ARE right that standards (at least in the UK) ain't what they were. Society ain't what it was. And neither is nostalgia. So, when you say it's time to take the kid gloves off (bearing in mind you are not of the hang 'em and flog 'em variety) just what is a proportionate official response to kids gobbing off at a respectfiul ceremony? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 20 February , 2005 Share Posted 20 February , 2005 Community response imperative. I'll tell you why ... If this activity does go on unhindered it is ONLY A MATTER IF TIME before the redtops over here see the jingo potential in the story. All it takes is one guy to come across the yarn on a bad news day. Then you can imagine the headlines: YOBS RULE TOMMY MEMORIAL; IT'S ENOUGH TO MAKE YOU YPRES; SKATE THUGS HURL ABUSE AT WAR MONUMENT etc etc. Personally, and I assume this has already been done, if I was the local plod I'd give malcontents a firm warning. This will, of course, be blatantly ignored. Since that has not worked, I'd go for the youth worker scenario ... this too will have little or no success. Sorry for being cynical. Thus it comes down to court appearances. Fines and banning orders. That's just for the act of ignoring any civic by-law (which should exist) preventing untoward activity at this object of Civic Pride/Heritage. When it comes down to seeking trouble/hurling abuse/actual scraps ... then the law should follow its course .. disorderly behaviour/assault charges etc. I think any magistrate would also be expected to deal with this matter in the light of his local knowledge. Thus if a bunch of diehard hoods decided to mess about on the local war memorial here and torment people at ceremonies, the local community would expect/demand that magistrate to take stern action. I believe the same response would be forthcoming from the citizens of Ypres. Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredJCarss Posted 20 February , 2005 Share Posted 20 February , 2005 As most of us carry a camera about - why not take a few pictures of them and pass them to the authorities or e.amil them? Hand them to the local papers? Publicly shame the wee B****rs After all most of us spend money which is appreciated locally. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 21 February , 2005 Share Posted 21 February , 2005 Aoman after my own heart! Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 21 February , 2005 Share Posted 21 February , 2005 If these yobs carry on like this, as someone else has already commented, it is only a matter of time before they do it whilst there is a party of visiting hard nuts who will sort them out and they and their scate boards are likely to finish up in the moat. Whilst I in no way condone the antics of some British tourists purporting to be football fans, or those of members of extreme right political groups, who travel the world for the sole purpose of picking fights, publicity about this problem is likely to sound like an open invitation to such people - particularly if they see it as a stain on British honour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 21 February , 2005 Share Posted 21 February , 2005 Jacky You asked about reports of similar incidents. I know it wasn't in your country, but about 5 years ago my wife and I were visiting the CWGC cemetery at Neuve Chapelle when a mixed group of teenagers - probably about 14/15 years old- approached us and started shouting at us telling us to "F*** off, you F****** British". They then began throwing stones at us, and deciding that discretion was best we withdrew. I don't know what it was all about, but I have a feeling that we had earlier disturbed some boys and girls who had been "at it" behind the cemetery wall and had run off as we approached. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genevrac Posted 21 February , 2005 Share Posted 21 February , 2005 I have to be honest that both myself and Jacques have previously on separate occasions noticed vandelism at the Menin Gate, the first time was finding the registers having been burnt inside the scale model of the Menin Gate for blind people and there were burnt pages scattered across the grassed area around it. As soon as we saw this we went straight to the CWGC office and reported this. The second time we noticed that the registers being defaced and some had been thrown in the bins. Also, when I have walked around the remparts starting at the gate there have been broken beer bottles and the glass splinters literally all down the steps leading up to the remparts area. I realise that we are/have entered in to a different society for younger people now, however, I would hate to think that we would get to a stage where we see security camera's being erected on this proud memorial! Something does need to be done about the problems at the Menin Gate, if not then the youths committing these acts will certainly start to believe that it is the norm to act this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 21 February , 2005 Share Posted 21 February , 2005 I hope I am not ever molested at the Menin Gate. I think I might be silly and "have a go" fearing that otherwise my Great Uncle looking down on me from the Gate might think the whole British nation has gone soft. No doubt I will then end up in an Ypres nick ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyHollinger Posted 21 February , 2005 Share Posted 21 February , 2005 Part of me despairs that the world should come to this ... It's like feeling a bit uneasy somewhere you had previously felt safe. 1) While these places are sacrad to us ... to some of the youth of these areas, these places are just that - places and what's so important to their lives? 2) Does the Belgian society really have much to "fight" this sort of thing? Putting it into a US perspective ... this would be at the bottom of the police blotter in terms of actually doing something about it. Burglaries here are routinely handled with a phone call and maybe the visit of one officer to take pictures and a list of what was stolen. There is no investigation unless somebody is actually hurt. The phrase "kids and drugs" are used to pass it off. Does Ypres/Ieper actually have police to spend the time to find out who and then what? IF they actually damaged something, you might get a couple of hours of community service ... 3) A security cam might be a good answer - the technology is cheap and it can work on motion sensors, etc. and record who is where - when .... but it really comes down to is it important enough to the Belgians to spend the time, trouble and money to protect these areas ... and then raise the local taxes to do it. 4) Just my take is that if all we have to worry about is broken beer bottles, the lingering remnants of illicit sex and a couple of F-bombs, we're pretty lucky ... The fact of the matter is the ceremony at the Menin Gate is a world phenom as it is - that a community would care about something 90 years ago is a world oddity as it stands that the local teens don't care is not news at all. So - to our Belgian pals ... what is the take on minor "youth" crimes such as are reported above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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