Alan Lines Posted 18 February , 2005 Share Posted 18 February , 2005 After going through a bit of a hectic time in the last year or so I finally managed to find time for a quick visit to the Salient this week. After the Ceremony my son and his girlfriend went off to look for a casualty for me up the stairs at the back of the Memorial. Whilst there they had a very close shave with 6 or 7 I would guess 15 to 17 year olds. He came across the other side to speak with me and told me he thought they would certainly have given him a good beating had they not got away sharpish. (He's a very calm lad and not given to over exaggeration) Whilst still talking with me we realised they had been followed. My presence made them wary ( I was the only male adult amongst us) but did not deter them so I walked over to them and told them quietly to F off knowing they would understand this! We carried on looking around as three of the people I was with had never been before but ended up being spat on and sworn at from above. Deciding enough was enough we went back down to the road and out of site but were followed at a distance all the way to the car. This is the first time I have come across anything like this on the battlefields but am wondering if this is an isolated incident or something that is happening on a regular basis now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 18 February , 2005 Share Posted 18 February , 2005 Alan, Just to clarify - did these appear to be local youths? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 18 February , 2005 Share Posted 18 February , 2005 Alan, This is becoming a serious problem. There is a group of youngsters who are really acting very provocing towards the public of the Ceremony and especially against schoolparties. There have been some fighting already and they are disturbing the Ceremony with music, just being noisy and even throwing wreaths down the steps. The police know about it but the problem isn't solved yet. Cheers, Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 18 February , 2005 Share Posted 18 February , 2005 Very saddened to hear of this Alan,Jacky are the police actively trying to solve these problems.??? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 18 February , 2005 Share Posted 18 February , 2005 Forgot!! Would other people who had a same experience or whitnessed one please post it or send me a private mail ? My mail adress: jacky.platteeuw@pandora.be Thanks, Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 18 February , 2005 Share Posted 18 February , 2005 First of all it should be stressed that every town/village has its fair collection of scrotes... across the globe. Secondly, I find it truly remarkable that the community of Ypres still engages in this moving and respectful ceremony. Those who continue this tradition are deserving of everyone's respect and gratitude. In the light of what I have said above, I trust no-one will think I am trying to belittle or demean the ethos which lies behind the tradition. But, as one means of settling this problem, perhaps it should be pointed out just how emotive such a subject/ceremony is for people who travel to Ypres, many of them frequently. For people like Jacky and our other Belgian friends it must be mortifying when such incidents occur. However, perhaps the police should be taking more notice/action to deal with this ongoing problem as it could have a severely detrimental effect on local business. I have little doubt that the Battlefield/Family History 'tourism industry' is a significant revenue source for such areas and it would only be common sense to ensure people who come to visit and contribute to the local economy are afforded protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lines Posted 19 February , 2005 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2005 I'm quite certain these were local lads. Their lack of respect and general behaviour didn't bother me in the slightest, that's a common enough occurence anywhere. So I hope anyone who is reading this thread doesn't get too upset about it. As Desmond7 says most places have their fair share of teenage scum so while it's the Menin Gate in Ypres it's the park or green somewhere else. I'm just sad to hear this wasn't an isolated incidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Like said, in every town you have them. I am already happy to see there is no grafitti on the walls. Imagine the Menin gate in Brussels or London??? Indeed it isn't nice to have problems or conflicts with them. And yes, the police should kick them out of there, but... The main problem is not control by the police, but a place for those youngsters to hang around. The Menin gate isn't such a place. But they need an alternative. I often hear the problem: but what can we do? Where can we go to? It isn't because it are a bunch of "punks" they have no right to be somewhere (else, not the Menin gate)... But that is politics again . Or no, I know. Just blame it on the teachers who didn't do their job to learn the kids to have respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 We had a similar experience in April last year as three of these louts decided to give a group of visiting Scottish children at the ceremony the benefit of their limited command of the English language with a few "f" words. Funny enough the use of the "f" word was considered less of an offence by these children than by being called "english ******ers". The 3 louts in question would be aged 16 or 17 and carried skateboards. I doubt whether a good dressing down would have registered with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 I know. Just blame it on the teachers who didn't do their job to learn the kids to have respect. What about the parents, bk? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick @ IFF Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Maybe the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and the Last Post Association should act together towards the Police and the city authorities to deal with this problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Maybe the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and the Last Post Association should act together towards the Police and the city authorities to deal with this problem? Do you think they don't??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRIAN TALMER Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 blame it on the teachers who didn't do their job to learn the kids to have respect. There have always been teenagers and this seems to be a recent problem, so has something changed? Has their normal place for hanging out become unavailable? This probably has little to do with a lack of respect but more about a fresh supply of potential victims as the ceremony becomes increasingly popular. Bkristof I have to take exception to your second comment It is not the job of teachers to teach respect - that lies first and foremost with the parents. A sad sign of the times. Let us hope for a speedy resolution Lesley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Bkristof I have to take exception to your second comment It is not the job of teachers to teach respect - that lies first and foremost with the parents. Hahahahahaha, I was just placing a small trap and it worked... I am a teacher myself! I just posted a typical thought of some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Bkristof I have to take exception to your second comment It is not the job of teachers to teach respect - that lies first and foremost with the parents. As Kristof is a teacher I think this comment was meant to be ironic Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Brian, I think you'll find Kristof was tongue in cheek with that comment. It stems from a previous thread about the youth of today. And if any of these 'misguided youths' happen to disturb the first ceremony I manage to attend they'll find their treasured skateboards wrapped around their pretty little skulls. Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 I am a teacher myself! And, if I remember correctly, Kristof teaches "difficult" youngsters. Good joke, mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 I am a teacher myself! And, if I remember correctly, Kristof teaches "difficult" youngsters. Good joke, mate. you are correct indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 As a father of 3, I can confirm that all youngsters are difficult ! Respect for others needs to be inculcated first at home and then re-inforced at school. Both parents and teachers share the blame for the current behaviour of a small number of young people. I can't believe that the Ypres police cannot end this sort of behaviour at the Menin Gate forthwith. After all there are always police officers in attendance ! If this continues, the local yobs will inevitably meet a bunch of British hard nuts and a riot will ensue. Needs to be nipped in the bud now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 bkristof said I was just placing a small trap and it worked... ??????why were you just placing a small trap....so everyone who didnt know or slightly care what you did would take issue with your statement?....or so that everyone who does know you can say Good joke, mate Gee, i didn't know it was against forum rules to joke a bit. Or to be ironic. Sorry Mark, i will never do it again Indeed, only very serious things here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 or so that everyone who does know you can say Good joke, mate Mark Actually, mate, I only know Kristof by what he posts here, just like that's all I know of most members. I come from Manchester, and we call everyone "mate". Even women. or people we hate. Everyone. Kristof has often made similar points when the subject of "unruly teenagers" crops up on these pages. I enjoyed the irony of this remark. Nothing more. Lighten up, eh? Life's too short.......... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Things aren't that easy as they seem. When asking and talking to them they simply say: f... off mat the Menin Gate is our territory. Think this free translation of their words just says enough of their mentality. As for fighting we already have seen it and they are not particularly impressed by the police neither. They consider being questioned by the police as a 'act of bravery'. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandyford Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Jacky Yes. That describes a very common scenario encountered all over. In this case Ypres is really is their territory and the Menin Gate is somewhere where things are 'happening' and where their behaviour will attract attention. As you say, they probably welcome attention from the police and also the prospect of a fight developing. In England ASBOs (Anti Social Behaviour Orders) are starting to be imposed upon young people (or not so young people) who behave in an aggressive and intimidating way in public places. They are forbidden by law from going to the particular street or area decided by the issuing authority. This seems to improve the situation in housing areas or High Streets, where a gang of young people or even a single young person is making life miserable or dangerous for others. I think that actual timed evidence of the behaviour has to be collected. Perhaps others on this forum will be able to comment on what happens to people breaking these orders and whether they are really successful or just give us all the illusion of something being done. Kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Kate Manchester has been a leading City in making ASBOs and they have generally been successful. One of the issues it addresses is how to deal with a very small group of very young offenders who are making life a misery in their immediate neighbourhood. The juvenile courts are (quite rightly) reluctant to remand kids so young in custody in Young Offender Institutions while they are awaiting trial. The ASBO gives the Police an authority to act quickly and effectively against any breach of the order. It's thought to generally work and most will grow out of this sort of offending as they get older. There is, of course, a small minority who will continue to breach even this "last chance" type of order. The success depends on the willingness to target the right offenders and the willingness of the local police to enforce the order. Next steps may be electronic tagging (already an option) and satelite tracking, using Global Positioning Systems(being tested). These are not just ASBO related additons but may be available as an addition (I think) on any community sentence or release licence from prison. John (Added later - a recent press release from Manchester City Council indicates that 430 "final warning" interviews have been conducted with offenders. Most offenders have then altered their behaviour under threat of the order. 160 orders have been instituted. Of these half have had no subsequent prosecution of any kind. About 30% have been prosecuted for breach of the order. So, what the Council is saying is that out of 430 original offenders, all but 50 altered their behaviour or complied with the subsequent order. I reckon that's a winner for the community - John) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 John's assessment rings true ... as he states, no matter what you will always end up with some who are determined to proceed on an anti-social basis. We had a bunch of early and pre-teen hoods in our town. They created all kinds of havoc from noise to nastiness of the worst kind. They were well known to all and acquired the nickname 'The Untouchables' because police/courts seemed unable to deal with them. That was a few years ago. Of the same 'gang', two are currently serving prison terms, a few are still scrotes, most of the others have 'calmed down'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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