HMS INDIA

[Rebecca Clarke]

6 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Rebecca, I have a general interest in WW1 and a particular interest in officers of the Royal Naval Reserve, and I was specially interested in Jenkins as he attended the same school as me (with many years in between).

Jenkins had an interesting post-war period, he joined the Auxiliaries in Ireland (ADRIC) and later it would appear that he also got himself mixed up in the Spanish Civil War (but I never found any confirmation of him getting married).

 

MB

Thank you for answering my questions.  He was quite young when he was in Norway so it seems unlikely he married however the officers lived out of the camp and spent time socializing with the local girls leading to romance and a few marriages.

[knittinganddeath]

Kennedy married his Norwegian wife "many years before the war" according to the book that I linked earlier. In the Norwegian archives (Riksarkivet) there is an Alice Fedora Esther Mary Lundh in Kristiania in the census of 1910. She was born in Australia in 1890. This person's father was a Norwegian naval officer and her mother was English. Her siblings were also born in Australia. Of note, her "assumed place of residence" (antatt oppholdssted) is given as England, but her civil status is unmarried. Anyway, could she be Kennedy's wife?

 

Jenkins' marriage is a tough one; I don't think there's any documentary evidence (marriage certificate etc) available online. Lots of announcements in Norwegian newspapers, though! The following is from Aftenposten on 1 June 1918: "Marriage will be entered into on the third of this month between Miss Therese Johansen, Kongsvinger, and lieutenant Harold Rhys Jenkins, R.N.R. British Internment camp, Jørstadmoen. The wedding will take place at the English church at 1 o'clock, after which there will be lunch at the Grand Hotel."

 

 

On 27/05/2021 at 04:00, Rebecca Clarke said:

do you mind me asking how you know about HMS India?

 

I was actually researching German POWs sent from Russia to convalesce when I discovered that there were also Brits here. It's an interesting time to research in Norwegian history in part because it's been so thoroughly forgotten and completely (and unsurprisingly) superseded by the traumatic occupation during WWII.

 

 

[Rebecca Clarke]

1 hour ago, knittinganddeath said:

Kennedy married his Norwegian wife "many years before the war" according to the book that I linked earlier. In the Norwegian archives (Riksarkivet) there is an Alice Fedora Esther Mary Lundh in Kristiania in the census of 1910. She was born in Australia in 1890. This person's father was a Norwegian naval officer and her mother was English. Her siblings were also born in Australia. Of note, her "assumed place of residence" (antatt oppholdssted) is given as England, but her civil status is unmarried. Anyway, could she be Kennedy's wife?

 

Jenkins' marriage is a tough one; I don't think there's any documentary evidence (marriage certificate etc) available online. Lots of announcements in Norwegian newspapers, though! The following is from Aftenposten on 1 June 1918: "Marriage will be entered into on the third of this month between Miss Therese Johansen, Kongsvinger, and lieutenant Harold Rhys Jenkins, R.N.R. British Internment camp, Jørstadmoen. The wedding will take place at the English church at 1 o'clock, after which there will be lunch at the Grand Hotel."

 

 

 

I was actually researching German POWs sent from Russia to convalesce when I discovered that there were also Brits here. It's an interesting time to research in Norwegian history in part because it's been so thoroughly forgotten and completely (and unsurprisingly) superseded by the traumatic occupation during WWII.

 

 

The records I have say that Commander Kennedy and Fedora Lundh were married in February 1916.  They were presented with a platter engraved with the signatures of all the men in the Jørstadmoen camp.  His grandson still has the platter.

That is so interesting about Jenkins.  All I had seen was that he was rumored to have married a doctor.  I know about 6 others who married Norwegian women as well.

[knittinganddeath]

On 27/05/2021 at 08:15, Rebecca Clarke said:

The records I have say that Commander Kennedy and Fedora Lundh were married in February 1916.  They were presented with a platter engraved with the signatures of all the men in the Jørstadmoen camp.  His grandson still has the platter

That makes more sense. I wonder where the authors of the Norwegian article got their information from.

 

In case you haven't seen these before, some of R.A. Clarke's letters/postcards were auctioned in Norway in 2012: http://www.frimerkehuset.no/fcm/auk71/055.HTM

 

ETA: The engagement and wedding announcements for Fedora Lundh and WGA Kennedy! The announcements appeared in many other newspapers as well. These were just the first two that I found.

 

Engagement from Norges Handels og Sjøfartstidende, 11 February 1916

 

 

Wedding from the newspaper 1ste Mai, 28 February 1916. The marriage was celebrated at the English church in Kristiania (Oslo).

 

[Rebecca Clarke]

1 hour ago, knittinganddeath said:

That makes more sense. I wonder where the authors of the Norwegian article got their information from.

 

In case you haven't seen these before, some of R.A. Clarke's letters/postcards were auctioned in Norway in 2012: http://www.frimerkehuset.no/fcm/auk71/055.HTM

 

ETA: The engagement and wedding announcements for Fedora Lundh and WGA Kennedy! The announcements appeared in many other newspapers as well. These were just the first two that I found.

 

Engagement from Norges Handels og Sjøfartstidende, 11 February 1916

 

Wedding from the newspaper 1ste Mai, 28 February 1916. The marriage was celebrated at the English church in Kristiania (Oslo).

It’s wasn’t a long engagement, was it???  
We have found a number of Arnold’s letters on the open market - over 30 - but I suspect that there are more that we still haven’t found.

Commander Kennedy and his wife had a son in April of 1917.

[KizmeRD]

The priest at the English Church in Kristiana (St. Edmund’s, Hammersborg) would regularly travel up to the Internment Camp in order to conduct services and administer to the spiritual needs of the men (acting as the Camp Chaplin). Therefore the Anglican church was the natural choice for any wedding celebrations.

 

Wasn’t Lt. Ernst Alltree another of the one’s to tie the knot with a local girl?

 

MB

 

[leibregiment]

16 hours ago, Rebecca Clarke said:

That’s correct.  I have very little information on Jenkins but have a few photos of him.  Rumours are that he married a Norwegian doctor but I have not been able to verify this.  I know he died in WW2.  Do you mind me asking why you are interested in HMS India and her crew.  I am the granddaughter-in-law of ERA R. A Clarke and am writing a book based on the letters he wrote whilst he was on camp.

 

Hi.  Thanks for this.  Was Cyril Rex a relative of yours?  If not, do you have any particular reason for your interest in HMS India?

Hi Rebecca, no I have his medals, just getting around to researching him and found this post

[leibregiment]

Just would like to add this item in my collection 

 

 

[knittinganddeath]

This book Fra dragon og musketer til elektronikk og data: ekserserplassen Jørstadmoen 1787-1998 also has an extensive article about the internees at Jørstadmoen but it is only available for Norwegian IP addresses. Among the vignettes: a guard at the camp told a local newspaper that one of his main tasks involved chasing girls away from the fence where they were trying to sneak kisses with the internees; "they are all suffering greatly from 'the English disease.'"

 

Here is the house where Kennedy and his wife lived. Gamlevegen 119 in Lillehammer is now a kindergarten. Photo from Google Maps.

 

 

[KizmeRD]

1 hour ago, knittinganddeath said:

a guard at the camp told a local newspaper that one of his main tasks involved chasing girls away from the fence where they were trying to sneak kisses with the internees; "they are all suffering greatly from 'the English disease.'"

 

 ‘For there’s something about a sailor…’ was a music hall hit at the time, and it seems that the local ladies agreed!

 

But seriously, from what I’ve read, there was often friction between the internees and their guards, especially during the final year of the conflict. 

 

MB

[Rebecca Clarke]

6 hours ago, leibregiment said:

Just would like to add this item in my collection 

I want this too!  There is a chance my grandfather-in-law was involved in making it as we have other wooden things he made.  I’ve tried haggling with the current owners but they’re not interested!  It’s so expensive 

2 hours ago, knittinganddeath said:

This book Fra dragon og musketer til elektronikk og data: ekserserplassen Jørstadmoen 1787-1998 also has an extensive article about the internees at Jørstadmoen but it is only available for Norwegian IP addresses. Among the vignettes: a guard at the camp told a local newspaper that one of his main tasks involved chasing girls away from the fence where they were trying to sneak kisses with the internees; "they are all suffering greatly from 'the English disease.'"

 

Here is the house where Kennedy and his wife lived. Gamlevegen 119 in Lillehammer is now a kindergarten. Photo from Google Maps.

 

I can imagine that an influx of 108 men into a little village must have caused a stir!  Thanks for the photo of the house!  Do you mind if I pass it on to Commander Kennedy’s granddaughter?

[Rebecca Clarke]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

 

 ‘For there’s something about a sailor…’ was a music hall hit at the time, and it seems that the local ladies agreed!

 

But seriously, from what I’ve read, there was often friction between the internees and their guards, especially during the final year of the conflict. 

 

MB

There was some real friction at times - over the whole course of the internment but yes, in 1918.

[Rebecca Clarke]

6 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

The priest at the English Church in Kristiana (St. Edmund’s, Hammersborg) would regularly travel up to the Internment Camp in order to conduct services and administer to the spiritual needs of the men (acting as the Camp Chaplin). Therefore the Anglican church was the natural choice for any wedding celebrations.

 

Wasn’t Lt. Ernst Alltree another of the one’s to tie the knot with a local girl?

 

MB

 

Yes, Lt. Alltree married Hedvig Knudsen, Private Jack/John Philip was rumored to have been engaged, Fireman E Miller is said to have been engaged to an Emma Halvorsen and Midshipman Ronald Clunies-Ross married Clara/Klara Thygesen who had been married to the artist Rudolph Thygesen.

[Rebecca Clarke]

14 minutes ago, Rebecca Clarke said:

I want this too!  There is a chance my grandfather-in-law was involved in making it as we have other wooden things he made.  I’ve tried haggling with the current owners but they’re not interested!  It’s so expensive 

I can imagine that an influx of 108 men into a little village must have caused a stir!  Thanks for the photo of the house!  Do you mind if I pass it on to Commander Kennedy’s granddaughter?

 

6 hours ago, leibregiment said:

Just would like to add this item in my collection 

Did you purchase it?  I’ve noticed that it’s no longer for sale.....

[knittinganddeath]

I can't find anything for Private Philip, but the engagement between Edward Miller and Emma Halvorsen was at least published. Whether or not the marriage actually occurred...???

 

From the Lillehammer Tilskuer, 11 December 1916: "Engagement has been entered into between Miss Emma Halvorsen, Lillehammer, and Mr. Edward Miller, England."

 

 

Rebecca -- please feel free to share the picture of the house, it's not mine; just search for "Gamlevegen 119 Lillehammer" on Google Maps and you'll find it. The shot is actually taken from a sidestreet (Erik Bues veg), because the view from the main road (Gamlevegen) is blocked by trees.

 

 

 

[leibregiment]

1 hour ago, Rebecca Clarke said:

 

Did you purchase it?  I’ve noticed that it’s no longer for sale.....

Yes I did...😉

[Rebecca Clarke]

13 hours ago, leibregiment said:

Yes I did...😉

 

13 hours ago, leibregiment said:

Yes I did...😉

Oh wow.  Lucky you.  If you ever want to sell it, let me know!

[KizmeRD]

Rebecca, do you know if Queen Maud had an interest in the Internment Camp - did she ever make a Royal Visit?
MB

[Rebecca Clarke]

2 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Rebecca, do you know if Queen Maud had an interest in the Internment Camp - did she ever make a Royal Visit?
MB

I have no documentation that reports on a royal visit.....

[KizmeRD]

Thinking about it, that would probably have been a breach of Norway’s status as a neutral non-belligerent.

MB

[knittinganddeath]

Maud reportedly sent a wreath for the funeral of Lieutenant Bale but I can't find any newspaper reports of a visit. (She also donated to Lord Kitchener's memorial fund, which seems quite partisan even if it was done in a private capacity.)

 

I think the Danish royals visited Hald camp in Denmark (also a neutral country). The circumstances could be slightly different as those were POWs.

[Rebecca Clarke]

On 27/05/2021 at 17:56, Rebecca Clarke said:

I want this too!  There is a chance my grandfather-in-law was involved in making it as we have other wooden things he made.  I’ve tried haggling with the current owners but they’re not interested!  It’s so expensive 

I can imagine that an influx of 108 men into a little village must have caused a stir!  Thanks for the photo of the house!  Do you mind if I pass it on to Commander Kennedy’s granddaughter?

 

On 28/05/2021 at 13:21, knittinganddeath said:

Maud reportedly sent a wreath for the funeral of Lieutenant Bale but I can't find any newspaper reports of a visit. (She also donated to Lord Kitchener's memorial fund, which seems quite partisan even if it was done in a private capacity.)

 

I think the Danish royals visited Hald camp in Denmark (also a neutral country). The circumstances could be slightly different as those were POWs.

Hi again, I tried to look at the link you sent me that you thought might be I.P limited to Norway - you were right!  Is there any way that you could copy or scan the pages that relate to the camp and send them to me?  My email address is rebeccaATtheclarkesDOTbiz.  If this is too big a job, I understand, but it seems like it might be a very valuable resource.

[rtilley]

Hello,

I’m probably a bit late to this discussion, but I stumbled upon this forum while trying to find a picture of the HMS India to show my daughter as she wondered why we have English surnames as Norwegians.

William Tilley was my great grandfather and was indeed a train engineer (as was his son, my grandfather). I don’t know a whole lot about his life, but I do know that both he and three of his sons fled when the Germans occupied Norway during WW2 and fought overseas in various capacities. William and at least two of his sons spent the war either in the Navy or on merchant convoys whereas my grandfather ended up in the Norwegian Police Forces in Sweden. We found a short letter after my grandfather died where he summarized his experiences and it said he didn’t see his father (William) between 1940 and 1945 when they were reunited again after the war.

Again, I’m likely a bit late here but I would be very interested in reading your book Rebecca if/when it is available. If there is a link to where I can purchase a copy (Amazon?) it would be much appreciated.

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. @Rebecca Clarke has visited the forum recently. Hope this tag will alert her to your post. She’s also put her email address on her post (something we discourage as spammers can harvest information like that) I’ve edited it, but  replace AT and DOT with the relevant symbols.
 

Michelle 

[rtilley]

Thank you, I’ll wait and see if she replies here and if not I’ll send an e-mail.

29 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Welcome to the forum. @Rebecca Clarke has visited the forum recently. Hope this tag will alert her to your post. She’s also put her email address on her post (something we discourage as spammers can harvest information like that) I’ve edited it, but  replace AT and DOT with the relevant symbols.
 

Michelle