HMS INDIA

[Rebecca Clarke]

Hi.  I am in the process of researching and writing a book about the sinking and internment of British sailors from HMS India.  The vessel was a part of the 10th Cruiser Squadron and was torpedoed on 8th August 1915 off the coast of Northern Norway.  I am hoping to have an appendix at the end of the book listing the whole crew - commemorating the lives of those who died but also listing the survivors - both those who were able to return to the UK and those who were interned like my grandfather.  I am seeking any information on the crew.  I’ve got names but would love birth and death dates and also any interesting information on the survivors.  If you are family of or know of anyone who was a member of this fateful crew I would greatly appreciate any information that you can pass on.  The majority of the book will be centered around the 80 or so letters and drawings my grandfather wrote and drew during the three years he was interned but I really want to include information on other crew members as Thanks.

Thanks in advance to anyone who is able to help.

Rebecca

[Malcolm12hl]

Rebecca

 

You will be able to find details of place and date of birth for the Naval members of the crew from the service records held at the National Archives.  These have been digitised and can be downloaded free of charge during the Covid-19 closure.  Finding the right men quickly will be easier if you know their service numbers.  If you do not already know these, you can find them on the list of casualties and survivors here:

 

http://www.naval-history.net/xDKCas1915-08Aug.htm

 

Malcolm

[Felix C]

FYI, for the German side Ernst Hashagen wrote in some detail regarding the torpedoing.  

[Rebecca Clarke]

Thanks Malcolm.   I am aware of this and live only 10 minutes from the archives.  I’m more after personal details.  Not all of the men have service numbers and even those that do don’t seem to link up to anymore information so I am just hoping that I might find some relatives lurking about!

[alf mcm]

Rebecca,

  Welcome to the forum.

  I have a couple of survivors;-

125843 William James WARD

145067 Thomas Josephs SANDERS

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

 

[Rebecca Clarke]

Felix C - do you know how I would get in contact with him?

[Rebecca Clarke]

7 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

Rebecca,

  Welcome to the forum.

  I have a couple of survivors;-

125843 William James WARD

145067 Thomas Josephs SANDERS

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

 

Hi Alf.  I have both of these men listed.  Ward was a Petty Officer 1st Class.  He has been listed as “died on active service” but I haven’t found anything more on that.  Sanders actually roomed with my Grandfather and was invalided home 13/08/1916.  I have a different service number for him 143068 as opposed to your 145067......I will look into that!

[alf mcm]

Rebecca,

  A short newspaper article here about survivor Algernon A. Churcher;- https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000381%2f19150821%2f013&stringtohighlight=survivor india

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[horatio2]

7 minutes ago, Rebecca Clarke said:

I have a different service number for him 143068 as opposed to your 145067......I will look into that!

He was 145068.

Edited 10 June , 2020 by horatio2

[Rebecca Clarke]

3 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

Rebecca,

  A short newspaper article here about survivor Algernon A. Churcher;- https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000381%2f19150821%2f013&stringtohighlight=survivor india

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

Thank you!  He is one that has been hard to find!!

[Rebecca Clarke]

5 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

Rebecca,

  A short newspaper article here about survivor Algernon A. Churcher;- https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000381%2f19150821%2f013&stringtohighlight=survivor india

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

It could be as he is named in all my lists as Algy Churches and it says he is a steward!

6 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

He was 145068.

Thank you!

[alf mcm]

Algernon Albert Churcher is on a number of Ancestry family trees. Only 1 mentions his marriage to Mabel Emily Salmon.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[Rebecca Clarke]

2 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

Algernon Albert Churcher is on a number of Ancestry family trees. Only 1 mentions his marriage to Mabel Emily Salmon.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

Thanks so much, Alf.  Just followed him up and found all this.  He was one who was not interned in Norway as he was rescued by the Gotaland not a belligerent ship.

[Felix C]

59 minutes ago, Rebecca Clarke said:

Felix C - do you know how I would get in contact with him?

Long deceased. He was on board the German submarine. He wrote of the sighting and sinking in his memoirs. The AMC on duty was deliberately targeted by the Germans. 

[Joe R]

The Armed Merchant Cruiser INDIA was sunk by U22 Kapitanleutnant Bruno Hoppe commanding.

K/L Ernst Hashagen  did write a book  WESTWARD HO! about his exploits in U62. I know it was on 

the internet  years ago and in German. He also may have been a junior officer on U22 when AMC

INDIA was sunk, but I'm not sure about this. Hope this helps.

 

Respectfully,

 

Joe R

[wallace2]

On 10/06/2020 at 17:43, Rebecca Clarke said:

Hi Alf.  I have both of these men listed.  Ward was a Petty Officer 1st Class.  He has been listed as “died on active service” but I haven’t found anything more on that.  Sanders actually roomed with my Grandfather and was invalided home 13/08/1916.  I have a different service number for him 143068 as opposed to your 145067......I will look into that!

 

NA has Ward's Service Certificate online and you can see a slightly overlaid version by searching for Royal Navy Ratings Service Records and opening it using his service number.  His record is covered on two sheets and the second states that he was repatriated as Invalided and Unfit for Military Service.

Edited 11 June , 2020 by wallace2
More info

[leibregiment]

I have a medal trio to Cyril Rex, emigrated to the USA after the war, have attached some details, sadly no photo as yet

 

 

 

[Rebecca Clarke]

Hi.  Was Cyril a relative of yours?

[horatio2]

Cyril REX was one of numerous RMLI recruits who volunteered very early in the war, before RMLI short service (duration of the war) engagements had been introduced. Hence they were due to serve 12 years.

Many such men, including Pte REX, were removed from their 12-year engagements by transfer to short service after the war. REX became Chatham/3421(S) for a few weeks in late 1919 before being demobilised. He has a second ADM 159 record for this last period spent at RM Barracks Chatham. = 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7819092

[knittinganddeath]

Hi Rebecca,

 

I'm sure you know that William Tilley and Norman Bolton married Norwegian women and remained in Norway after the war. I think they were quite active in the local community around Hamar afterwards.

 

According to the Norwegian press, the internees were given 3 weeks of home leave every year. It was done in stages and if one absconded, the next group would be refused permission. William Oakley made a very creative escape attempt nonetheless in July 1918. "After arriving back in Norway and presenting themselves for role call, one man was missing: Willy Oakley. This caused some surprise, but then the surprise turned to shock for a completely new man stepped out of the line and presented himself as the person bearing that name." At this point, the ruse was discovered. "His real name was Albert Oakley, he said, and he was the brother of the missing man. Three weeks ago, he met his 'brother' in England and that man suggested to him that he take over the job at Jørstadmoen so that Willy could enjoy his much-longed-for freedom."

 

The "false Oakley" was sent to be imprisoned at Akershus Fortress in Oslo. "He was so furious that he had to be handcuffed. On the same day that he was sent to Akerhus, the real prisoner returned from England." Willy Oakley did not have a good time while interned and was charged & sentenced for violence in a Norwegian court in October 1917.

 

The internees were allowed to have whiskey, which required a special exemption from the no-alcohol rules in the camp. After much ado, permission was granted and the whiskey was transported across the sea from Scotland, and then arrived in Norway ready to be transported to Jørstadmoen. There it hit a snag: at the station in Oslo, the railway company refused to allow the cargo on board the train. More negotiations hastily ensued and eventually the internees got their daily ration while the Norwegian guards -- for whom the no-alcohol policy still applied -- looked on with a certain envy.

 

A local history group in Fåberg/Lillehammer published a book back in the 1990s with quite an extensive section about the Brits interned there. Here is the link. It might not work outside Norway (it does say "accessible for everyone" but I'm not sure if that means everyone in Norway or everyone in the world). The pictures below come from that book: Fåberg og Lillehammer, 1995 Vol. 15. published by Fåberg og Lillehammer historielag.

 

Norman Bolton (right) with George Barber. Bolton married Nora Iversen and their son Sven Bolton became a well-known local politician.

 

HMS India Football Club 1916. Second from left in the back row is the "rebellious Philips" (he ended up sentenced for violence or attempted mutiny and having to go to prison). Second from right in the middle is William Tilley who became a Norwegian locomotive driver. Norman Bolton is first from right on the bottom row.

 

If you are outside Norway, I think you will need a VPN to access the Norwegian newspaper archives, which are at the same site as the book. If there is anyone or anything in particular that you are interested in, or if you need translation assistance, I'm very happy to help.

 

[KizmeRD]

I heard it mentioned that Commander Kennedy also married a Norwegian lady, can anyone verify this?

MB

[KizmeRD]

Found it!

I went back and checked the notes I have on Mid. Jenkins RNR, and it would appear that Commander WGA Kennedy RN married Miss Fedora Lundh.

 

MB

[Rebecca Clarke]

5 hours ago, knittinganddeath said:

Hi Rebecca,

 

I'm sure you know that William Tilley and Norman Bolton married Norwegian women and remained in Norway after the war. I think they were quite active in the local community around Hamar afterwards.

 

According to the Norwegian press, the internees were given 3 weeks of home leave every year. It was done in stages and if one absconded, the next group would be refused permission. William Oakley made a very creative escape attempt nonetheless in July 1918. "After arriving back in Norway and presenting themselves for role call, one man was missing: Willy Oakley. This caused some surprise, but then the surprise turned to shock for a completely new man stepped out of the line and presented himself as the person bearing that name." At this point, the ruse was discovered. "His real name was Albert Oakley, he said, and he was the brother of the missing man. Three weeks ago, he met his 'brother' in England and that man suggested to him that he take over the job at Jørstadmoen so that Willy could enjoy his much-longed-for freedom."

 

The "false Oakley" was sent to be imprisoned at Akershus Fortress in Oslo. "He was so furious that he had to be handcuffed. On the same day that he was sent to Akerhus, the real prisoner returned from England." Willy Oakley did not have a good time while interned and was charged & sentenced for violence in a Norwegian court in October 1917.

 

The internees were allowed to have whiskey, which required a special exemption from the no-alcohol rules in the camp. After much ado, permission was granted and the whiskey was transported across the sea from Scotland, and then arrived in Norway ready to be transported to Jørstadmoen. There it hit a snag: at the station in Oslo, the railway company refused to allow the cargo on board the train. More negotiations hastily ensued and eventually the internees got their daily ration while the Norwegian guards -- for whom the no-alcohol policy still applied -- looked on with a certain envy.

 

A local history group in Fåberg/Lillehammer published a book back in the 1990s with quite an extensive section about the Brits interned there. Here is the link. It might not work outside Norway (it does say "accessible for everyone" but I'm not sure if that means everyone in Norway or everyone in the world). The pictures below come from that book: Fåberg og Lillehammer, 1995 Vol. 15. published by Fåberg og Lillehammer historielag.

 

Norman Bolton (right) with George Barber. Bolton married Nora Iversen and their son Sven Bolton became a well-known local politician.

 

HMS India Football Club 1916. Second from left in the back row is the "rebellious Philips" (he ended up sentenced for violence or attempted mutiny and having to go to prison). Second from right in the middle is William Tilley who became a Norwegian locomotive driver. Norman Bolton is first from right on the bottom row.

 

If you are outside Norway, I think you will need a VPN to access the Norwegian newspaper archives, which are at the same site as the book. If there is anyone or anything in particular that you are interested in, or if you need translation assistance, I'm very happy to help.

 

Hello and thank you so much!  I have seen some of this article but never the complete one and I did not know who the writers were or where the article was from.  I will need to run it through Google translate to understand it!  I am outside of Norway.  I live in London.  I am interested in all of the story and all the crew and have made contact with 25 descendants of the crew.  I have almost finished my book but keep being sent amazing things like this and then I find more things to add.  I am particularly interested in R.A Clarke as he was my husband’s grandfather. My book is based around the letters he wrote and I know that many of these letters were sold to collectors so I am always interested in finding more.  I have seen the ones quoted in this article.

thank you once again for getting in touch - do you mind me asking how you know about HMS India?

Rebecca

[Rebecca Clarke]

1 minute ago, KizmeRD said:

Found it!

I went back and checked the notes I have on Mid. Jenkins RNR, and it would appear that Commander WGA Kennedy RN married Miss Fedora Lundh.

 

MB

That’s correct.  I have very little information on Jenkins but have a few photos of him.  Rumours are that he married a Norwegian doctor but I have not been able to verify this.  I know he died in WW2.  Do you mind me asking why you are interested in HMS India and her crew.  I am the granddaughter-in-law of ERA R. A Clarke and am writing a book based on the letters he wrote whilst he was on camp.

 

7 hours ago, leibregiment said:

I have a medal trio to Cyril Rex, emigrated to the USA after the war, have attached some details, sadly no photo as yet

Hi.  Thanks for this.  Was Cyril Rex a relative of yours?  If not, do you have any particular reason for your interest in HMS India?

[KizmeRD]

Rebecca, I have a general interest in WW1 and a particular interest in officers of the Royal Naval Reserve, and I was specially interested in Jenkins as he attended the same school as me (with many years in between).

Jenkins had an interesting post-war period, he joined the Auxiliaries in Ireland (ADRIC) and later it would appear that he also got himself mixed up in the Spanish Civil War (but I never found any confirmation of him getting married).

 

MB