Uniform and cap badge recognition

[Stebie9173]

Ok,

 

I bit of lateral thinking.

 

On the Spring 1919 Electoral Roll at 158 Malcolm Street, Heaton Ward are:

 

George Cohen

John Philip Kennedy

Mary Ann Kennedy

 

Ancestry link

 

At the same address, 158 Malcolm Street, on the 1918 AVL is:

 

George Cohen, 173777 A.S.C. (Army Service Corps)

 

Ancestry link to AVL

 

 

 

Steve.

Edited 21 April , 2020 by Stebie9173

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Brilliant Steve.

I can't find his Medal Index Cards on Ancestry, does he appear in the rolls?

Edited 22 April , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Stebie9173]

For some reason there is a gap in the A.S.C. medal roll for 173777.

 

Ancestry link to roll page

 

This could be due to:

 

• No overseas service?
• Transferred to a different unit or Corps before serving overseas then returned to ASC post war?

 

 

The prefixes on the rest of the page are all S4/ which suggests that he was as well - S4 = Supply (i.e. non-specialist areas like Remounts or Motor)

 

 

Steve.

 

Edited 22 April , 2020 by Stebie9173

[Keidee]

Many thanks for the info Steve.

 

John Philip & Mary Ann Kennedy are mother and father-in-law, when my great Grandad married Katherine his family disowned him because he was Jewish and because he married a catholic woman, and at this point he obviously moved in with his wife's parents.

 

Going back to the photo of the 4 lads at Bellister Camp and the writing from Drummer Thomas R Kennedy and taking into account the informative feedback from Frogsmile, is it fact that they would have been to young at this point and that A coy 6 Northumberland Fusiliers was by definition more like a man's/sports club and was prior to the outbreak of WW1? Also given the age they look in the photo. My reason for asking is that i have found a medal card for a Issac Cohen 47742 Northumberland Fusiliers who was apart of 25th & 26th Battlion and in the remarks it has a code A.R.C1.Z and there is also further information in the Jewry Roll of Honour, at this point i can not find any further info to give me clarification. I am also to see if Thomas Kennedy has any service details.

 

I appreciate the feedback, its interesting and very informative.

 

Thank you

 

Keith

[FROGSMILE]

The 25th and 26th Northumberland Fusiliers were Service Battalions of the Tyneside Irish, which fits with your Kennedy family line.  There were also 1st and 4th Tyneside Irish Battalions, the 24th and 27th so that the four units formed a Brigade, the 103rd.  I think that joining these units says a lot about the influence that the Kennedy family had on Isaac/George.

 

This connection with Service battalions suggests that Isaac/George had left the Territorial Force before the war, but then later volunteered during Lord Kitchener's famous recruiting campaign and, along with so many young men, became part of the 'New (Kitchener) Armies' that initially were formed entirely by citizens who voluntarily enlisted.

 

The Tyneside Irish wore the Northumberland Fusiliers grenade cap badge, but a special Irish harp badge as part of their shoulder title in place of a small grenade worn by all the other battalions of the regiment, although the harp was also sometimes worn as a collar badge instead (image courtesy of forum member Tyneside Chinaman).  You can read more about their history via these links: 

 

1.   https://newcastleheroesofww1.org/kitcheners-army/the-tyneside-irish.html

 

2.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/103rd_(Tyneside_Irish)_Brigade

 

3.  https://www.tynesideirishbrigade.com/

 

With regards to age, although there was a clear age stipulated for active service, a lot of young men enlisted underage and it took some time to bring that under control.  Eventually the age set was 19, although it was also 18 for a time.

 

 

[Stebie9173]

The address on the pension card of 47742 Isaac Cohen is 379 Waterloo Road, Cheetham, Manchester - next of kin was his mother Jane Cohen. The card shows this man was a POW and ICRC records show him born on 21.9.1896 and taken POW at Bullecourt with D Company of 25th NF on 21.3.1918.

 

So in short - that one isn't him. 

 

 

Steve.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Stebie9173 said:

The address on the pension card of 47742 Isaac Cohen is 379 Waterloo Road, Cheetham, Manchester - next of kin was his mother Jane Cohen. The card shows this man was a POW and ICRC records show him born on 21.9.1896 and taken POW at Bullecourt with D Company of 25th NF on 21.3.1918.

 

So in short - that one isn't him. 

 

 

Steve.

 

It seems that we are back to the likelihood that he served with 6th NF (TF) prewar and then went to the ASC in the war itself Steve.

[Keidee]

Thank you for that info Steve.

like Frogsmile says, if he went to the ASC in the war, why has his service number 173777 not been listed on the medal index? I think I will take the advice and write to the MOD with the ASC details & service number and see what comes back.

Regards

keith

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

The index cards are just that, they're  an index as to where to find his entry in the rolls.

There might not be  a MIC for several reasons:

- The MICs are incomplete. Some (how many, I don't  know) are known to have been lost.

- The MIC is incorrectly transcribed and indexed on Ancestry.

- There is no MIC because he had no entitlement because he didn't  serve in  theatre  of war. Steve, above suggests his ASC prefix was S4  suggesting recounts. If that is so, it is entirely possible his ASC service was in the UK.

 

You raise  an interesting point about contacting the MOD. It is possible that they have records of his post war service, which could include details of Great War service. 

As far as I understand it, the MOD don't  have any sort of index that  shows a soldier's Great War entitlement, other than what is available in the public domain ie. Online access  to MICs and Medal Rolls.

 

This is an interesting but frustrating puzzle. I hope you get to solve it.

 

[PRC]

On 21/04/2020 at 16:20, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Right.

George Cohen married Catherine Kennedy in Newcastle in the September quarter  of 1913.

If he married under that name,  I think he would probably serve under that name also.

 

Surname	First name(s)	Spouse	District	Vol	Page
Marriages Sep 1913   (>99%)
Cohen	George	Kennedy	Newcastle T.	10b	53
Kennedy	Catherine	Cohen	Newcastle T.	10b	53

 

During the war years and immediate aftermath the following births were registered of children with the surname Cohen, mothers' maiden name Kennedy.

Q3 1914 John P Cohen, Newcastle on Tyne District.

Q2 1916 Catherine Cohen, Newcastle in Tyne District

Q2 1920 George A Cohen, Tynemouth District.*

Q2 1922 Kenneth Cohen, Tynemouth District.

 

If those are known to you as children of George (Isaac) and Catherine, then may be worthwhile applying for birth certificates. Fathers' occupation at a minimum should show rank and regiment\corps, and possibly much more. The post-war ones will also indicate if he stayed in the Army and so increase the likelihood of success that you will get a positive response on a request to the Ministry of Defence.

 

* And the home address on the 1920 certificate may give you a better idea if the right man has been found on the electoral register or where to look for him on the 1918 & 1919 AVL's.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[Keidee]

Thank you Dai & Peter, I will follow that advice and apply for the birth certificate to see what information they hold. It is frustrating but I am very keen to find out the truth because I am led to believe he did serve at the Somme at some point.

John P Cohen is my grandad, hopefully my mam still has his birth certificate.

Regards

Keith

Edited 9 May , 2020 by Keidee
Additional info

[trooper23]

Just a thought but with children born in 1914,1916, 1920 and 1922 its likely he was not on leave in 1917/1918. He might have been caught up in the 1918 German offensives 

[Keidee]

The original birth certificate for Catherine Dixon, unfortunately it doesn’t give much information, what is the likelihood if I order a more recent one, it will have more information?
Keith

Edited 12 May , 2020 by Keidee
Add photo

[Keith1914]

The bugler is my grandads older brother Thomas Kennedy born 24 Jan 1890.  I also believe this is how George met his wife Kate. I think he moved in with the Kennedy family at some point and around that time changed his name but I cant find the evidence for this right now. Anyhow, I've done what I can to clean up the image using AI. Its a bit risky as as AI sometimes loses detail that it should keep and changes the expression, direction and look of gazes etc, it might even change badges if you don't check but I think these retain a likeness I see in later pictures of the two. I would have colourised but i don't trust it with the uniform colour or eye colours.

 

 

Edited 26 April by Keith1914

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, Keith1914 said:

Its a bit risky as as AI sometimes loses detail that it should keep

Hi Keith,

Yes it does unfortunately, but as a picture to put on a wall. it's quite acceptable. Could you post the originals for comparison?

[Keith1914]

I've just cross checked against my copy of "A sturdy race of men" by Alan Isaac Grint, he has an image of a group of 1/5 Battalion ( unfortunately out of uniform)  scrubbing potatoes at Bellister camp. Above this he lists the camp locations for the TA battalions and Bellister camp was the location they went to in 1911, Some nearby photos of men from 1/4 and 1/6 in Scarborough Camp in 1912 are wearing identical uniforms as far as i can see to the uniforms in the one we have here for our group, except no example like the buglers uniform. One of the pictures, though seems to give several of those in the dress uniform a slightly different tone from the others ( suggesting a different colour?) and they are standing behind people who look like sgts in khaki dress.   btw I also considered if the change of name was because he needed baptising before the church would marry him with a Christian ceremony.  As far as i know the Kennedy's were not Catholic Irish by this stage.  I also noted a remark that during dissolution and the setting up of new battalion structures some people dropped out and rejoined elsewhere.

Edited 26 April by Keith1914

[Keith1914]

As requested, the originals are just crops from the main picture on page 1 of this thread

 

[Keith1914]

As i understand it ( from the source i just quoted ) a territorial force of new Northumberland fusilier battalions were set up in 1908. I'm not equipped with the knowledge to dispute what you are saying but why are we thinking these lads were in an Irish regiment at this point in time ( 1908) ?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

14 minutes ago, Keith1914 said:

As requested, the originals are just crops from the main picture on page 1 of this thread

 

OK , got it.
Yes it has rather mangled the detail of the flaming grenade cap badges, and also  mutilated the first soldier's ears.

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, Keith1914 said:

As i understand it ( from the source i just quoted ) a territorial force of new Northumberland fusilier battalions were set up in 1908. I'm not equipped with the knowledge to dispute what you are saying but why are we thinking these lads were in an Irish regiment at this point in time ( 1908) ?

I’m really sorry Keith, my brains fried this afternoon and I’ve crossed my wires.  It is Northumberland Fusiliers, as I’d discussed earlier throughout the thread, and I’ll delete these subsequent posts referring to the RMF.  They are all wrong and a result of my confusing myself.  The Northumberland’s had Territorials of course.

Edited 26 April by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

@Keidee hasn’t visited the forum since 2020. My tag might alert them to your post. 

[Keidee]

17 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

@Keidee hasn’t visited the forum since 2020. My tag might alert them to your post. 

Morning Michelle, sincere apologies. I actually stopped researching to focus on other things that were going on at the time. However, thank you for the nudge to re-visit and thank you to those who have contributed towards my research. 

[Matlock1418]

On 20/04/2020 at 11:51, Keidee said:

The collar badges do rather look post-war.

Speculatively ... from pension index cards at WFA/Fold3 there is one for a disability claim marked Post War Case and stamped 25 SEP 1922

From: Pte. George COHEN, M/15616, RASC

Unfortunately no address and nothing else opening up at WFA/Fold3 using that number

Not coming up on my copy of the MoD list but the publicly-accessible list is known to be incomplete.

???

M

[Keidee]

On 26/04/2024 at 17:17, Michelle Young said:

@Keidee hasn’t visited the forum since 2020. My tag might alert them to your post. 

 

56 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

The collar badges do rather look post-war.

Speculatively ... from pension index cards at WFA/Fold3 there is one for a disability claim marked Post War Case and stamped 25 SEP 1922

From: Pte. George COHEN, M/15616, RASC

Unfortunately no address and nothing else opening up at WFA/Fold3 using that number

Not coming up on my copy of the MoD list but the publicly-accessible list is known to be incomplete.

???

M

 

56 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

The collar badges do rather look post-war.

Speculatively ... from pension index cards at WFA/Fold3 there is one for a disability claim marked Post War Case and stamped 25 SEP 1922

From: Pte. George COHEN, M/15616, RASC

Unfortunately no address and nothing else opening up at WFA/Fold3 using that number

Not coming up on my copy of the MoD list but the publicly-accessible list is known to be incomplete.

???

M

Thank you for the information M, interestingly there was talk that he (my great grandfather) had an injury supposedly caused in the war, however the electoral role I’ve salvaged has a different service number? 

[Keidee]

On 26/04/2024 at 15:01, Keith1914 said:

The bugler is my grandads older brother Thomas Kennedy born 24 Jan 1890.  I also believe this is how George met his wife Kate. I think he moved in with the Kennedy family at some point and around that time changed his name but I cant find the evidence for this right now. Anyhow, I've done what I can to clean up the image using AI. Its a bit risky as as AI sometimes loses detail that it should keep and changes the expression, direction and look of gazes etc, it might even change badges if you don't check but I think these retain a likeness I see in later pictures of the two. I would have colourised but i don't trust it with the uniform colour or eye colours.

 

 

Hi Keith, again interesting info as the other side of my mothers family (opposite to the Cohen’s) is Kennedy and I managed to trace her great-grandfathers war record back to the Crimean war.