Uniform and cap badge recognition

[Keidee]

I am currently tracing my Great Grandad’s (seen on the right hand side of the picture) service history from WW1.

I believe he served with the Royal Munster Fusiliers, discharged in 1916, I also believe at some point he served in the Army Service Corp, as to what order, I am unsure.

I am interested to know if anyone has any information as to how a lad from Newcastle Upon Tyne came to serve in an Irish Regt? I do know he married in 1913 to a young lady from Irish decent
Any information regarding the history of men from the North East being listed into the Royal Munster Fusiliers would be greatly appreciated.

[Keidee]

Grateful for any information on the recognition of the uniform and cap badge please, I appreciate it’s not the best of pictures

[Michelle Young]

I have merged the two posts Keidee as multiple posts about the same subject cause repetition of answersand can cause confusion.

 

Michelle 

[Keidee]

Thank you and apologies as I am new to all of this.

[mancpal]

Michelle,

you must have merged topics as I posted, any thoughts where it went?

 

Simon

Edited 17 April , 2020 by mancpal

[Michelle Young]

I'm afraid not Simon

[mancpal]

Oh well, If I've got the energy after cooking tea etc I'll try and remember what it was about though there's a fair chance someone else will beat me to it !

 

Simon

[FROGSMILE]

They appear 

On 17/04/2020 at 18:43, Keidee said:

Grateful for any information on the recognition of the uniform and cap badge please, I appreciate it’s not the best of pictures

 

They are not Royal Munster Fusiliers (RMF) in the photo, but Northumberland Fusiliers (NF).  They are also either, Territorial Force (TF), or Special Reserve (before 1908 ‘Militia’) auxiliary soldiers (i.e. part-timers) at annual summer training camp under canvas, and typically for TF wearing the waist belt of the 1903 bandolier equipment (apart from the drummer holding a bugle).

 

Unlike the RMF, who had dark blue collar and cuffs with a white piping edging, the NF had ‘gosling green’ without white piping on collar, or cuffs (see enclosed photos).  They also had a plain blue forage cap with scarlet piping just around the top, whereas that of the RMF had the broad scarlet band of a royal regiment.  The cap badge of the two regiments was similar in outline and so difficult to tell apart from a distance.

 

The Irish infantry battalions of the Army really struggled with recruitment following the Somme battles of 1916 and after conscription was introduced that year they were often reinforced from the Infantry Base Depots with large drafts of men previously earmarked for English regiments and I suspect that is what happened with your forebear.

 

Men who became wounded, but upon recovery found unfit for infantry service but suitable for less strenuous duty would frequently find themselves transferred by a medical board grading to the Army Service Corps, or if of a lower grade still the Labour Corps.

 

A likely scenario would be pre-war or early war service as an underage (for active service) soldier with the TF, who later is conscripted or volunteers and after training is sent to the RMF.  From there he probably went to the ASC after wounding, although that is just my conjecture based on similar cases.

 

[Keidee]

Another photo of my Great Grandad (again not the best), believed to be the ASC possibly after he was medically discharged from the Northumberland Fusiliers.

 

Can anyone confirm the uniform is ASC please? 

[mancpal]

It's certainly ASC.

Simon

[Steven Broomfield]

And judging by the collar dogs, may well be post-Great War.

[Keidee]

Interesting as i am trying to work out if he started out in the ASC and then moved into the Northumberland Fusiliers, or the opposite way round?

 

If its post great war, possibly what year and what theatre of operations would that have been as he would have been 21 at the start of 1914.

 

Thank you again for the info

[clk]

Hi Keidee,

 

Can you post his name and DoB ? Do you know parents names; siblings; etc ?

 

Regards

Chris

[Keidee]

Hi Chris,

The story behind my Great Grandad is that he was Jewish and did not practice the Jewish faith and against his religion married an Irish lady thus resulting him being disowned by his family. My mother remembers being told not to ask questions about her Grandfather that is why information for me is limited. 

 

It is believed he was named Issac Cohen but changed it to George Cohen, when i do not know, but i do know that he married in 1913. I can't be precise but i do know he was born in 1893 to Rachel & Morris Cohen Newcastle Upon Tyne and he died July 1962 aged 69. His Siblings were Moses, Israel, Hannah, Sarah and Dorothy Cohen. 

Hope this helps

Keith

[FROGSMILE]

The photo confirms ASC as we discussed via private message.  He is definitely quite a number of years younger in the photo showing young Northumberland Fusiliers auxiliaries.

Can you confirm where you got the idea/information regarding Royal Munster Fusiliers, was it meaningful evidence, or was it just that someone told you the cap badge ‘looked like’ that of the RMF?

Edited 20 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Keidee]

To be honest, it was my own possible solution from the researched information I found on George Cohen and other bits. However keen to get some clarity on the limited info I had, I now know my GG was called Issac Cohen before changing his name, this I got from my family tree on Ancestry. I have also found a medal card for an Issac Cohen Northumberland Fusiliers. My research continues with the hope that I can build a positive picture about my Great Grandads Service history.

[FROGSMILE]

35 minutes ago, Keidee said:

To be honest, it was my own possible solution from the researched information I found on George Cohen and other bits. However keen to get some clarity on the limited info I had, I now know my GG was called Issac Cohen before changing his name, this I got from my family tree on Ancestry. I have also found a medal card for an Issac Cohen Northumberland Fusiliers. My research continues with the hope that I can build a positive picture about my Great Grandads Service history.

If you had no proper evidence regarding the RMF then the visual evidence on its own suggests that he served only with the NF and the ASC, the former previous to the latter. It’s quite possible that the NF photo is pre-war, as the men’s appearance fits for any time between 1909 and 1914.  Ergo, he might even have started the war with the ASC and never actually served with the infantry on active service.

Edited 20 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Keidee]

That is a good point, i will continue to look into it, i seem to find out a little bit more everyday so fingers crossed i might find out his history.

 

Thank you again

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Keidee said:

That is a good point, i will continue to look into it, i seem to find out a little bit more everyday so fingers crossed i might find out his history.

 

Thank you again

I was glad to help.  It’s important to emphasise that in the first photo he is not a regular soldier but a member of the auxiliary forces. At a time when there were no paid holidays, the auxiliary forces were a relatively popular way for young working class and lower middle class men to get away from domestic routine once a year to the training camp under canvas and have fun. Sports were played and masculine activities like shooting were enjoyed together with men of a similar age and background, often school friends.    These military camps were run by County Associations and not the regular army.  As such their records are retained separately, often in County or regional libraries, in addition to those copies held by the National Archives.  They received a daily pay rate whilst training at camp, but also a cash stipend each year if they recorded good attendance rates, which was another very attractive motivation.  In a broad sense it was a cross between a working man’s and a sports club.

Edited 20 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

As Frogsmile indicated, it's possible that the later picture of him in the ASC might (might) suggets service post 1921.

The MOD still hold the service records for such men, and thay can be accessed if the man was born before 1901.

I've had a quick look at the spreadsheets of names, and there seem to be no 'Cohen I.'s  at all, and only one 'Cohen G.'

Interestingly, his details are  given as

 

M/38589  COHEN G. 1892-10-08

 

The year of birth is close, and the old service number might be an ASC number, but it would be an early number, and I can't find a match in any medal index cards.

I tink however that some other regiments had old service numbers in that style.

On the Ancestry indexes, there are only a few Isaac or George Cohens in the ASC , but none have that number.

Where was he in 1939?  You could check the 1939 Register.

 

Did he marry as George or Isaac?

What was his wife's name?

[Keidee]

Thanks you for the replies.

 

Interesting information regarding the auxiliary forces, in someways its similar to today's auxiliary forces, they receive an annual bounty for completing the mandatory requirements. 

 

I am still trying to find out when he did change his name, however his wife was Katherine Kennedy, plus i will look on the 1939 Register.

 

I have found a medal card for an Issac Cohen 44742 of the Northumberland Fusiliers to which i am looking into?

 

I have attached a copy of the writing that is on the back of the picture with the 4 young Fusiliers, i am presuming Drummer T Kennedy of A Coy 6 N F is the author of the photo and incidentally, Drummer Thomas Kennedy is also the brother of my Great Grandad's wife.

 

I have also attached a better copy of the original photo of the 4 lads at Bellister Camp.

 

Again, thank you all for your informative information.

 

Keith 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Right.

George Cohen married Catherine Kennedy in Newcastle in the September quarter  of 1913.

If he married under that name,  I think he would probably serve under that name also.

 

Surname	First name(s)	Spouse	District	Vol	Page
Marriages Sep 1913   (>99%)
Cohen	George	Kennedy	Newcastle T.	10b	53
Kennedy	Catherine	Cohen	Newcastle T.	10b	53

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Right.

George Cohen married Catherine Kennedy in Newcastle in the September quarter  of 1913.

If he married under that name,  I think he would probably serve under that name also.

 

Surname	First name(s)	Spouse	District	Vol	Page
Marriages Sep 1913   (>99%)
Cohen	George	Kennedy	Newcastle T.	10b	53
Kennedy	Catherine	Cohen	Newcastle T.	10b	53

It’s interesting that the young drummer in the photo is according to the long hand writing on the back also a Kennedy.  Although it could easily be just a coincidence I have a gut feeling that perhaps Catherine is the drummer’s sister and that it is through her brother that she met George.

 

Afternote: apologies, I’ve just read subsequently that the OP has already stated that she is indeed the sister of the drummer.

 

NB.  The 6th (TF) Battalion NF used to attend their weekly training at various drill halls in and around Newcastle and on mobilisation mustered at the St George’s Drill Hall, Newcastle.  It now belongs to the Northumbria University.  Before 1908 the battalion had been the 3rd Volunteer Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers, and before 1883, the 1st Newcastle upon Tyne Volunteer Rifle Corps.

Edited 21 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

An Absent Voters' List still exists for Newcastle, and it is available on Ancestry, but I can't access anything other than the search page.

(And sadly I can't get a hit for any Cohens in Newcastle).

If anyone has access, would it be possible to check that avenue?

It might solve the problem...

 

Failing that, a trip to the Tyne and Wear Archives when this is all over?

Edited 21 April , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Keidee]

I’m on ancestry so will have a look.

 

My parents still live in Newcastle and I visit regularly so will happily take a trip to Tyne & Wear Archives once we get through the other side.

 

Everytime I think I am getting somewhere, there always seems to be a stumbling block, I am still hopeful I can trace something. A distant cousin of my mother recalls Great Grandad briefly spoke about his time in Somme, with what unit still remains a mystery.