Shrewsbury Records Office???

[Madmeg]

Some further confirmation of the Riding school for the TF RO in here- very interesting. https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/official-correspondence-following-a-death-in-the-great-war-private-cornelius-hayes-cheshire-regiment/ and also the Kenneth Chamber Dogpole- which is ALSO TF RO in 1915, the Riding School is 1917. But it may just have been that they were spread out over many buildings?

 

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Is that a completely different Priory House to the one identified by Bordercollie.  Surely there aren’t two at the same place, are there?

The school appears to have a building called Priory House. It is bang slap next door. 

I have now taken a virtual walk around the school as far as I can anyway and don;t think that is it either. Then there is Priory Lodge (different again) 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

Some further confirmation of the Riding school for the TF RO in here- very interesting. https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/official-correspondence-following-a-death-in-the-great-war-private-cornelius-hayes-cheshire-regiment/ and also the Kenneth Chamber Dogpole- which is ALSO TF RO in 1915, the Riding School is 1917. But it may just have been that they were spread out over many buildings?

 

The school appears to have a building called Priory House. It is bang slap next door. 

I have now taken a virtual walk around the school as far as I can anyway and don;t think that is it either. Then there is Priory Lodge (different again) 

Surely the answer is to superimpose a modern OS map over the pre war map posted by Bordercollie.  That will reveal straightaway where the WW1 era Priory House is now, or whether it’s been demolished or renamed.  As I’ve seen clever individuals on the forum do similar with trench maps I’m guessing it’s possible with an urban street map.

[Madmeg]

No 2 Dogpole - Two reception rooms, six bedrooms, bathroom, kithen and cellar - Also adjoining messuage called "Kenneth Chambers" with three rooms and W.C. ...  Grin<> http://search.shropshirehistory.org.uk/collections/getrecord/CCA_XSC_35_83/ I assume "Mrs Walker" had to move out for the army?

There is a hugely ugly modern building smack opposite the listed lovely school buildings (<sigh> The building we are after could have stood there?

[Madmeg]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Surely the answer is to superimpose a modern OS map over the pre war map posted by Bordercollie.  That will reveal straightaway where the WW1 era Priory House is now, or whether it’s been demolished or renamed.  As I’ve seen clever individuals on the forum do similar with trench maps I’m guessing it’s possible with an urban street map.

Looking at the modern map without superimposing it the footage of the building shown as being called Priory House is the same as the listed building today- the issue is that the rear of the building shown in the photo is very definitely NOT the one we are after!

Given that there are numerous addresses found already for the various offices it could be taken anywhere.

The riding school- https://www.drillhalls.org/Counties/Shropshire/TownShrewsbury.htm

Edited 3 September , 2021 by Madmeg

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Looking at the modern map without superimposing it the footage of the building shown as being called Priory House is the same as the listed building today- the issue is that the rear of the building shown in the photo is very definitely NOT the one we are after!

Given that there are numerous addresses found already for the various offices it could be taken anywhere.

I don’t think so necessarily.  Two of the officers are badged KSLI and that suggests to me that it was at the location of the pre-war KSLI office, Priory House.  Also I would suggest that we don’t know for sure that it was the rear (although I did think that previously), but just that it’s the lowermost storey.  I don’t think you should rule out Priory House, it seems to now be by far the most likely.  Shrewsbury covered a number of other regiments and it would be normal to see relevant cap badges represented at the location where each regiment was focused.  The two regimentally badged officers reflect the prewar establishment (IIRC) of two uniformed officers, an Oi/c and his deputy, i.e. a Maj and Capt, usually on half pay (the ‘permanent establishment’).  The other officers with General List badges would reflect the wartime commissions of bureaucrats taken on to cope with the huge surge in regimental strengths, and the extra lady clerks likewise (the wartime establishment).  As Priory House was the regiment’s office prewar they would be the least likely to be asked to move out one imagines.

 

Edited 3 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

I'm looking at some historic Shropshire Council planning applications and see some conflicting locations for Priory House. The one put up by bordercollie which says Priory House over the door concurs with the Historic England listing.

I'm also seeing the same building being described as Priory Lodge LINK TO PDF which should be the building to the east (formerly a nursery). Madmeg's Geograph.org image appears to be what should be called Priory Lodge but does seem to be referred to as Priory House in various planning applications.

 

I'm not convinced the images in the OP are Priory House/Lodge. I do think they are all the same location, #2 is just at a different angle. The building behind the group is a different build to the one on the right, note the curved brick window lintels as opposed to the splayed lintels behind the group (below the large soffit). Difficult to tell but I think the structure behind the group is a lean-to type addition to the original building or an entire wing with lean-to added on. Following on from and diversifying slightly to Matlock1418's comments I think one would expect the front of the original building on the right to have the curved brick window lintels and its own version of the ornamental proud course of bricks.

I did find a 2018 photo of 'Brickwork Bond' between Priory House & Lodge which although showing a curved brick window lintel it is of a single course and the brickwork does not look the same quality as the RH building in the OP.

TEW

 

 

[Bordercollie]

Let me try and resolve the confusion about Priory House.  Priory House is most certainly the building marked on the 1903 map and according to Kelly's Directory was the site of the Army Pay Office for Regimental District No.53 in 1913. This is a more recent photograph of Priory House when it was occupied by Priory School.

 

Priory Lodge is the building that stands between Priory House and the main school building on Priory Road.  The lamp post to the left of this photograph of Priory Lodge is the same one that can be seen to the right of the photograph of Priory House.

Judging from the footprint of Priory House on the 1903 map it looks as though the 2-storey structure with the black door opening onto the road is part of Priory House and shares a party wall with Priory Lodge.  Possibly that juxtaposition has given rise to the confusion in planning applications noted by TEW.

It is not possible to see anything of the back of Priory House because of the redevelopment in that area as part of the school.

The main building of Priory School was completed as a school around 1910 and so I think it is extremely unlikely that it would have been requisitioned as an Army Pay Office.  In any event it would have been far too large for the needs of the Army Pay Office for No.53 Regimental District.

The ugly building on the other side of Priory Road is the back of the Quarry Swimming and Fitness Centre that was completed in 1969. In this photograph taken from the Quarry, the roof tops of Priory House, Priory Lodge and Priory School main building can be seen behind the swimming and fitness centre.

The Quarry Swimming and Fitness Centre was built on the site of the old Victorian Baths which can be seen marked on the 1903 map.  This picture shows a view of the baths from the Quarry (I think) but the roof tops of the other buildings cannot be seen either due to artistic license or because of the height of the Victorian building. I think we can rule out the Victorian Baths as a possible location for the the APO.

 

I would be inclined to keep an open mind on whether Priory House is the location of the original photographs unless there is some clear evidence that those photographs are of the Record Office rather than the Pay Office. Both offices had women employees during the war.

In her book on Shrewsbury for the towns and cities in the Great War series Dorothy Nicolle records that the employment of women in the Pay Office caused some friction. When they were first employed, this letter to the local newspaper from outraged of Shrewsbury!

"Sir, The Army Pay Offices and the Records Office are unnecessarily extravagant in the rate of wages paid to young female employees. In Shrewsbury, quite young girls, only just 16 years of age, with no experience whatever, and who have not long left Elementary Schools, have been taken on as clerks on a starting salary of £1 a week. I submit that this is far too high for young inexperienced girls... These girls would have thought themselves well paid if offered ten shillings a week to commence."  

Later during the Spanish flu epidemic the military authorities put cinemas and public houses out of bounds to troops in military camps.  Those working in the Army Pay Office complained that the lady clerks they worked alongside were not placed under similar restrictions.

[Madmeg]

It is pretty obvious that the building now known as Priory Lodge OR Priory House (front door plaque actually says Lodge) ("St Austin Friarys Priory House) cannot be the one in the OP picture. The "records Office" has four generous windows along the rear wall on both stories and two more (in a different style) on the wall coming towards us. The photo of the rear of Priory house which I have posted above has two rather low windows two tiny window and that odd bay. It is NOT the rear of that building.  Despite the register saying it is a school two seconds search will show you that it has been turned into flats which are (or have been) up for sale recently https://www.movehut.co.uk/property/330632-priory-house-priory-road-shrewsbury-sy1-1ru/  but to reiterate - the rear of this building is absolutely NOT that shown in the photo https://www.onthemarket.com/details/4142569/ . Priory LODGE is the building which sticks off Priory House at the right making an L shape- the shed like building with the black doored garage. There is a lowered area which initially looks hopeful  but there isn;t enough space or windows before the two buildings join I would guess that at one stage it was all called Priory House maybe? Strictly speaking this building HAS no rear as we are looking at it in the photos of Priory House- and we can see the distinct lack of windows on that side. It appears to be used as a daycare centre. This is the side of the building furthest from the road- https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/90042932#/media?id=media1&ref=photoCollage&channel=COM_BUY and it is very obviously NOT the windowed courtyard shown in the picture. The building to the left with lots of windows is the end of the school. The schools Priory House is another gobsmackingly ugly building lumped right up to the rear of one end of the old Priory House with no consideration for preserving the feel or surrounds of the building whose name it has appropriated! 

Really the building in the photos cannot in any shape or form be of the buildings currently known as Priory House or Lodge however much you might want them to be! The windows are all wrong. The school however is another matter. I could see that there might have been a space to the rear of the school that might have matched but we can;t see that at all

[Bordercollie]

53 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

It is pretty obvious that the building now known as Priory Lodge OR Priory House (front door plaque actually says Lodge) ("St Austin Friarys Priory House) cannot be the one in the

I am not sure which front door plaque you are talking about, but on the door lintel it looks to me like it is Priory House

I really have no wish either way on the location of the original photograph. All I have said is that there is clear evidence that Priory House was the location of the the Army Pay Office in 1913 and so if the original photograph might have been taken at the Army Pay Office it would appear that it might have been taken at Priory House.  Conversely of course if it couldn't possibly have been taken at Priory House based upon the more recent appearance of the building then it clearly wasnt taken at the Army Pay Office.

[Madmeg]

:-D confusing huh. I think the listing site is somewhat out of date- and has had a name change since.

Not having a go at you - stirling job finding it and I have no doubt it was where the mail went to and was opened by a clerk and then allocated to where it needed to go and then run across town by a boy scout - just like today (except possibly the boy scout ).

I also have n doubt it isn;t where the photo was taken, it can't be there is no match.

Here is the yard at the back of Priory Lodge (the daycare which is up for sale) You can see the low roof of the modern school building which is also called priory House! It is so close to the old building that I suspect that there are no windows in that back wall (ancient light s and all that stuff. In addition the plans and satelite show the building to be a continuous line- in order to be the B&W location there needs to be a building at least two windows deep coming out at right angles. In additon those huge windows (french windows?) in the B&W are in a completely different style to those on the rear of Priory "House" (ie the one on the corner) from the rear view shown in the modern photo. It is not has never been the same place as the photo. 

Given the numbers of people in that photo there must have been more office space for them all, I would tentatively suggest that it could have been somewhere next door on what is now the Sixth form college but was then????  There is no mention in the College's website so only a very tentative suggestion.

No 1 Records office was based at 1 Priory House. This is a mailing address and I would guess that like big govt organisations everywhere all mail went to the front desk, were opened and then sent on to (by boy scout) whoever needed to see it. Big brass would have been based there. The people who did the important work would have been somewhere more suited to real work ;-) 

No1 Priory Road has been known as both Priory House and Priory Lodge. It is joined to a building which has also been known as Priory Lodge. The two buildings together appear to have been called Priory House in 1903. The modern building at the back is also known as Priory House. All clear as mud now?

Edited 4 September , 2021 by Madmeg

[Madmeg]

"

Headquarters No. 4 District, Granville St. Shrewsbury 375 (Missed this yesterday!) This is off Copthorne Rd.

Record Office, No. 1 Infantry, The Square. Shrewsbury 412 & 492."

Granville Street today is entirely resdential- some large Villas at the copthorne Road end and more modern ?60s/70's? towards the far end. Looks like Headquarters may have been run ot of a plain house? Any old maps for that?

The Square is presumably the Market Square. Has the inevitable modern (60's?) monstrosity down one side and the older buildings around the other sides- I wonder if the Record office was one large building now replaced ? or just housed in one of the smaller buildinsg around the square. I found a reference to "latrines" being built under the Hall for the use of the many troops.

[Matlock1418]

@Madmeg and @Bordercollie

Thanks for the renewal of interest in my thread..

Therein lies the problem ... Where in Shrewsbury?

To recap the original photographs came from the effects of a husband & wife - a couple who met whilst working at an Army office(s?) in Shrewsbury in 1919.

His Army Service Record clearly shows he was posted to the Shrewsbury Records Office in 1919 and she is in the two larger group photos [but he isn't in any of them].

Their family history has it as they were both at the Records Office [possibly an assumption?] - but too late to ask them as now several generations adrift.

I sort of go with the general assumption that the photos were likely taken in the privacy at the rear of a building rather than at the front - which makes everything so much harder!

???

:-) M

[FROGSMILE]

Just a couple of points to clarify the prewar Army organisation during that era.  First, each regimental ‘Records Office’ (RO) was not generally a large building with multiple wings, etc.  As a rule the regiments with just two regular battalions (each of around a thousand all ranks) required only a contemporary large town house size.  The RO were numbered according to the original precedence that the senior of the two battalions held as infantry of the line, e.g. for the KSLI, 53rd.  Most commonly just two officers and a moderate number of civilian staff were employed to run them.  The officers were usually on long service, on ‘half pay’ and employed in part for their probity and in part due to deep knowledge of ‘their’ regiment.  The addresses of the RO appeared on the annual Army List and can be compiled and examined for the entire Army were that of interest.  The regiments with four battalions did require slightly larger premises to cater for their increased numbers.

The massive increase in the size of the Army during WW1 was absolutely unprecedented and none of the RO (nor regimental depots for that matter) were able to cope.  This led to those few RO with extra ground space to have huts erected as annexes, but mostly urban locations did not facilitate this and generally the war office leased other buildings and erected huts to cater for the extra battalions.  The Territorial Force (TF) had their own buildings since 1908 (many of them from former volunteer battalions).  Ergo each regiment usually had its original building from prewar, additional locations as wartime expediency, and the established infrastructure of the TF.  Together these were largely in the same area (city, town, etc.) and the more battalions a regiment raised the more offices it required.  All this when considered in the round suggests that the OP photo with KSLI badged officers was either, the prewar address from the Army List (and county gazetteers), a wartime establishment (such as the Riding School mentioned in this thread), or a TF establishment.

‘District Headquarters’ were subdivisions (x2) of the regional administrative ‘Commands’ (Northern, Scottish, etc.) and a part of the home establishment’s command structure.  In effect the Army’s national geographical framework and not deployable.  It oversaw the training establishments and associated areas, the field army headquarters buildings, the regimental depots, the RO (and integral pay offices), the barracks accommodation infrastructure, army recruitment for its own area, and generally interfaced with the civilian community in which it sat, including the Territorial Force County Associations.  It constituted the launch pad from which field army formations were projected to war and then supported them.  Each of the Command Headquarters were generally in quite large buildings with multiple offices.  It’s two subordinate, numbered ‘Districts’ were for the most part in similar sized buildings to the RO, as along similar lines they accommodated just a few antediluvian officers, recruiting staff, and civilian clerical support.

Overall it’s important to visualise this red brick constellation of HQs (Command and District) and Records Offices (regular, war expansion, and TF) that provided the administrative skeleton of the Army when considering the individual locations, as in this thread.  Generally speaking when the war ended the additional offices closed down, but the addresses for the RO and HQs remained (for a period at least) the same as those prewar.

Unless we had photos of all four sides of each building used, including any historic additions that might have contrasting styles of brickwork, I don’t think it’s possible to be fiercely definitive as to which location the OPs photo depicts.

 

 

 

Edited 5 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Just a couple of points to clarify the prewar Army organisation during that era. ... ... ...

Thank you.

:-) M

[Madmeg]

British Newspaper Archives

The Priory House had a sale of household goods in 1887 at some stage before 1905 it was acquired by the corporation and in 1905 leased to the army for the establishment of the Army Pay (or Army Accounts Office).

There were obviously good relations between the staff there and at the Lichfield office with notices of football matches until about 1908. In 1923 both staffs held a reunion (looks like at Lichfiled). During the war it seems to be referred to as Army Pay Corps - which is what my Gt Aunt called it.

Territorial Divisions and Brigades- address Monklands Abbey Foregate (an army listb for c 1924 found on google books)

This is of interest- "Government Servant's Serious Offence at Shrewsbury. Thomas Maling Hall (42), of Granville Place. Shrewsbury, employed in the Territorial Force Records Office, formerly in the Army Pay Corps, was charged at Shrewsbury, on Saturday, with unlawfully attempting ..." (from BNA index)

From the 1902 map it looks as if what is now Granville Street was near the site of the Shrewsbury Barracks and if Granville Place above is linked then could be the location of Headquarters (but not the Pay Corps). I'm thinking that his employment and the name suggest he was living at the office? Or that there was residential accomodation for staff somewhere on site? There appears to be no other "Granville" in Shrewsbury.

Granville street is marked here ( the houses at that end are of that era) but the scaling looks a bit off compared to the modern placement of Hafren lane. Th Barracks have mostly been demolished for new housing and street view doesn;t show what's in there.

As far as Granville Street is concerned I would suggest the furthest along the road of the Edwardian properties has the most could have been an army office look about it? But is still not the image in the B&W pic- just could be the records office? Can't find anything useful on the history of the place.

[Matlock1418]

 

Here are a couple of teaser/tasters of really splendid photos at Shropshire Archives, Shrewsbury - easy to book to view https://www.shropshirearchives.org.uk

Officers and Staff of No 1 Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury May 1918

And

No. 2 Record Office, No. 4 District, Shrewsbury, June 1918

 

Images thanks to access by Shropshire Archives  [here on GWF of hopefully adequately low resolution for not-for-profit purposes]

The photo locations are completely different from the photos in the OP, as are the numbers of staff photographed!

:-) M

[FROGSMILE]

It would not be normal for military staff to be accommodated on the office premises.  Military personnel were either, accommodated in the local Territorial barracks (meaning depot), or more commonly for older clerical staff, in a boarding house for which the war office paid a “lodging allowance”.  This is largely because food was also to be provided as a part of terms and conditions of service (‘bed and board’ - going back centuries).

Edited 6 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Madmeg]

Hi Matlock, there isn;t one for the Pay Corps personnel as well is there? I know there is one listed in the catalogue- still wanting to find the Great Aunts.

No1 look like a much more jolly bunch than number 2 :-) Note the scouts again.

Re Granville Street there is also a death of a Welsh Military man (can't remember his rank) noted in BNA.  It does seem odd to have as headquarters a house in a residential street- but unless there was a temporary building past the Edwardian houses which has since been demolished that's where they must have been - no other Granville Street (or Place) in Shrewsbury.

Edited 4 September , 2021 by Madmeg

[Madmeg]

The 1925 map shows the Priory House/Lodge complex property divisions more clearly. The section with the garage ("mews?" is actually a separate but joined building from this. Obviously this does not say that the three conjoined buildings could not have been purchased by the corporation and leased out to the army as one, nor clear up all of the subsequent confusion over more modern naming or tell us whether the "mews" section has been knocked through into one of the other sections.

Also clears up my query over the apparent wrong placement of Hafren Road next to Granville Street- Hafren Road runs parallel to the old footpath shown on the older map and was developed between 1902 and 1925- but note no new development on Granville Street over the period. So Headquarters must surely have been located in one of those Edwardian buildings. 

Edited 5 September , 2021 by Madmeg

[Matlock1418]

On 04/09/2021 at 22:28, Madmeg said:

there isn;t one for the Pay Corps personnel as well is there? I know there is one listed in the catalogue- still wanting to find the Great Aunts.

Sorry, I don't have or know in detail - record offices, rather than pay offices in Shrewsbury were/are my interest [though you have piqued my curiosity again, and now a bit wider]

:-) M

[FROGSMILE]

On 06/09/2021 at 09:10, Matlock1418 said:

Sorry, I don't have or know in detail - record offices, rather than pay offices in Shrewsbury were/are my interest [though you have piqued my curiosity again, and now a bit wider]

:-) M

The chain for functional administrative responsibility started from small battalion orderly rooms that in war were usually located at a rear echelon often shared with other brigade units, not far from the Bde HQ.  It was the same location where the Quarter-master and Transport section were based.  From there, matters affecting personnel, including pay (promotion, upgrading, allowances, etc.), were communicated via “Battalion Part Two Orders” to the Regimental Records Office(s), RRO, e.g. Shrewsbury, but routinely via an administrative hub (AG’s Office) at ‘The Base’ in France.

From the RRO, where careers were managed and recorded (e.g. training courses attended, upgrading, transfers and soldier’s personal records, etc.), the data was then passed to the Army Pay Office (APO) dealing with a group of regiments, with each having its own Regimental Paymaster.  From the APO the details were submitted to the Command Pay Office, CPO, (that was aligned with the regional Command previously mentioned - e.g. Northern) from which funds were then allocated.  In a very few locations, such as London, the APO was collocated with the CPO.  The CPO reported to the War Office Accounts Branch, who were responsible for auditing.

NB.  The RRO were expanded (effectively, duplicated) to become numbered Infantry Records Offices (IRO) during the course of the war, hence the extra buildings, hutments, etc.

Edited 23 April by FROGSMILE

[Bordercollie]

On 04/09/2021 at 22:28, Madmeg said:

 isn;t one for the Pay Corps personnel as well is there?

I think Shropshire Archives' catalogue descriptions are responsible for some confusion.

The first photograph posted by Matlock is catalogued as MI6510/1 Photograph of the officers and staff of the Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury (Army Pay Corps).  That is probably the reference that you recall.

The second is catalogued as 6005/SHYKS/9/0406 Infantry Record Office Staff.

There is also an album catalogued as 6005/SHYKS/2008/2669/8 KSLI Depot Photographs 1881-1968; which includes Page 3: Staff of No 1 Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury May 1918.  I suspect that is the same photograph as MI6510/1 above.

I think both photographs were probably taken in Copthorne Barracks.  It is not only the inclusion of one of the photographs in the Depot Album that leads me to that conclusion.  The wall visible on the left of the second photograph looks very much like the wall that used to separate the back of the barracks from Barracks Lane.  I suppose one wall does look much like another but I do have an intimate knowledge of that wall as the windows of the main conference room in a modern block used to face onto that wall!  

 

[Madmeg]

ah, bother and thanks. I wondered with Matlock posting those two and the records office listing only two whether they had it wrong. 

From a google street view the wall is still there- inconveniently blocking any viewing of the rear of the site in the search for mysterious photo locations :-D

Edited 6 September , 2021 by Madmeg

[Matlock1418]

On 06/09/2021 at 10:32, Bordercollie said:

I think Shropshire Archives' catalogue descriptions are responsible for some confusion.

The first photograph posted by Matlock is catalogued as MI6510/1 Photograph of the officers and staff of the Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury (Army Pay Corps).  That is probably the reference that you recall.

The second is catalogued as 6005/SHYKS/9/0406 Infantry Record Office Staff.

There is also an album catalogued as 6005/SHYKS/2008/2669/8 KSLI Depot Photographs 1881-1968; which includes Page 3: Staff of No 1 Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury May 1918.  I suspect that is the same photograph as MI6510/1 above.

I think both photographs were probably taken in Copthorne Barracks.  It is not only the inclusion of one of the photographs in the Depot Album that leads me to that conclusion.  The wall visible on the left of the second photograph looks very much like the wall that used to separate the back of the barracks from Barracks Lane.  I suppose one wall does look much like another but I do have an intimate knowledge of that wall as the windows of the main conference room in a modern block used to face onto that wall!  

The Archive references escape me.

Thank you for your local knowledge,

:-) M

[PRC]

Apologies folks - I tried going back through this thread and got myself confused. Is the consensus that the Riding School was a Territorial Force office from 1915/16 onwards?

It's just while looking through the papers of a Regular Army man, taken prisoner 24th August 1914, the correspondence in his service record relating to his 1914 Star, dating from mid-1919, refers to No.2 Infantry Records Office, The Riding School, Shrewsbury.

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

Cheers,
Peter