Shrewsbury Records Office???

[Matlock1418]

Hope someone can confirm or clarify the location from these photos - Shrewsbury RO?

Believed to be late war or 1919.

 

1c

 

2b

 

A civilian female from/living in Shrewsbury is identifiable in the two larger group photos

Any other info always appreciated.

In hope ...

Matlock

 

[Kath]

There a small notice in the right window of the 2nd. photo.

It's a jasmine growing up the wall

3rd. pic - interesting examples of the effects of 'manspread' in the front row!

[TEW]

I don't know the location but I'll bump it up as the photos are quite unusual.

 

Mixture of cap badges, 2 scouts?, men with Silver War Badges. Not sure of address for Shrewsbury RO.

 

TEW

[Robin Garrett]

Interesting that there are no medal ribbons being worn. KSLI cap badges in evidence

[TEW]

Plus a couple of General Service Badges? Scout on left in 3e has a medal ribbon!!

 

Circular badges worn by both genders in all 3 images, generally on left lapel but not always. Not to be confused with the 2 SWBs showing in 3e.

 

Same Senior officer in 2b & 3e?.

Shrewsbury No. 4 district had as far as I can tell;

No. 1 Infantry Records Office.

No. 2 Infantry Records Office

TF Records office.

Can't find an address to compare with streetview but my guess would be along Copthorne Rd.

 

Could these images or copies be held at Shropshire Regimental Museum? If not they have a photo described as;

Staff of No 1 Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury May 1918. Which may be good for a comparison.

TEW

[Robin Garrett]

The Shropshire Regimental Museum, soon to be renamed as the Soldiers of Shropshire Museum, passed its archives to the Shropshire Archives.

[Matlock1418]

On 03/09/2019 at 12:27, TEW said:

Shrewsbury No. 4 district had as far as I can tell;

No. 1 Infantry Records Office.

No. 2 Infantry Records Office

TF Records office.

Can't find an address to compare with streetview but my guess would be along Copthorne Rd.

 

 Thanks - Interesting - can you explain why you think Copthorne Road

TF Records moved to/were at Kenneth Chambers, Dogpole c.1915 [Apparently a messuage adjacent to No. 2 Dogpole if my searches are correct]

[Matlock1418]

On 03/09/2019 at 12:27, TEW said:

Could these images or copies be held at Shropshire Regimental Museum? If not they have a photo described as;

Staff of No 1 Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury May 1918. Which may be good for a comparison.

 

On 03/09/2019 at 15:07, Robin Garrett said:

The Shropshire Regimental Museum, soon to be renamed as the Soldiers of Shropshire Museum, passed its archives to the Shropshire Archives.

 

Thanks for this steer and re-direction - probably worth an investigation = They also have No.2 Record Office too.

[TEW]

Copthorne Road was a complete guess based on the location of the KSLI barracks.

TEW

[Matlock1418]

On 03/09/2019 at 12:27, TEW said:

Could these images or copies be held at Shropshire Regimental Museum? If not they have a photo described as;

Staff of No 1 Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury May 1918. Which may be good for a comparison.

 

On 03/09/2019 at 15:07, Robin Garrett said:

The Shropshire Regimental Museum, soon to be renamed as the Soldiers of Shropshire Museum

 

No. 1 RO Quite a challenge to get on with comparisons as a large panoramic photo and lots of faces to look at - they all look so similar, especially those in uniform and with moustaches!  Likewise the civilans - male!  The ladies are more distinctive but never the less not found a lookalike yet!

Likewise for No. 2 RO

 

Edit: have moved my enquiry about inverted chevrons to Badges/uniforms Forum instead.

 

Still haven't found the addresses for the ROs at either Shropshire Archives or Shropshire Regimental Museum - still up for your further ideas please

Matlock

 

Edited 12 September , 2019 by Matlock1418
Moved enquiry about inverted chevrons to Badges/uniforms Forum instead.

[Robin Garrett]

The KSLI was formed in the 1881 reorganisation from the 53rd Shropshire Regiment and the 85th King's Light Infantry, Its recruiting area was Shropshire, Herefordshire and Radnorshire.

[Bordercollie]

The address given in the 1914 Army List for the Infantry Record Office Shrewsbury was Belle Vue.  I think the premises in Belle Vue was later Headquarters West Midlands District and closed in the 1980s when the District Headquarters moved to Copthorne after the Light Infantry moved to the new depot for the Light Division at Winchester.

[Matlock1418]

19 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

The address given in the 1914 Army List for the Infantry Record Office Shrewsbury was Belle Vue.  I think the premises in Belle Vue was later Headquarters West Midlands District

Thank's for that - interesting - "Belle Vue" was also the home address of a person of great interest & who was/is part of the origins of the enquiry.

The trouble is that "Belle Vue" was then, as is now, generally considered an area of Shrewsbury, and not an exact address [as you probably already know given your location] - perhaps fine for the posties of the day who knew everyone personally, but not a great help in the C21st.

Nor determining if No.1  or No.2 RO

The hunt will have to go on.

Have you, or anyone else, got any further ideas on exact address or alternative documents of interest/sources that may help?

Matlock

 

Edit. From Shrewsbury Local History:

There is a pub called "The Armoury" on Victoria Quay, Victoria Avenue, near the Welsh Bridge [a bit out of Belle Vue to be sure] but this name/address is apparently now a red-herring, however ... 

This building was formerly built in the London Road area [in Belle Vue] and relocated post 1914-18 [During the war this large building was used as a hostel for belgian refugees [so possibly not a RO], and ... 

It also had a lot of ancillary buildings in/around Armoury Gardens, off London Road [many of these remain to this day].

I wonder if one of more of these buildings in Belle Vue might have been used for No.1 and/or No.2 RO ???

Still not there yet, but perhaps an option or few to pursue.

 

Further edit:  thanks to Google maps and Streetview had a quick tour of the area - on first looks of Armoury Gardens I can really only see mainly post-1914/18 war semi-detatched houses and some later ones.

The only property of a period c./prior to 1914 [possibly] appears to be Athlone House, 68 London Road (A larger quite imposing house-style building at the northern end of Armoury Gardens) - but it could possibly be newer I guess, just in an older style??  In 2018 apparently occupied by the Bishop of Shrewsbury. But what before?  An option = ??? 

M

Edited 9 September , 2019 by Matlock1418
Update and dodgy finger problems - again!

[Robin Garrett]

Would the 1911 Census be worth looking at?

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Robin Garrett said:

Would the 1911 Census be worth looking at?

Thanks - Now there's a thought, for 1911 anyway

I don't have a sub that allows viewing - but I think a trip to my local library might be on the cards and that might help.

I'm most interested in 1919 though

But ... may be a starter.

:-)

M

Edited 9 September , 2019 by Matlock1418
Those fingers again!

[TEW]

I did have a look through 1911 census records for the regional Infantry Record Offices and didn't have a lot of luck. I guess no one stayed overnight?

 

You can find individuals with occupations such as Clerk, Infantry Records so for example there are:

George Edge - Army Pensioner, Clerk Infantry Records. Address - Park Terrace, Abbey Foregate, Shrewsbury. Wife, 3 children and 3 boarders in the same house  one of which is Henry John Dance another Clerk Infantry Records.

 

Then there is Clements Parr - Employed in Infantry Records Office. Address is Copthorne Lodge.

TEW

[Matlock1418]

11 minutes ago, TEW said:

I did have a look through 1911 census records for the regional Infantry Record Offices and didn't have a lot of luck. I guess no one stayed overnight?

Thanks for looking.

I think, as you do, the names addresses you cite are for people working at the RO - so there was one in 1911 - but unfortunately not for the ROs themselves

Certainly don't think my POI live in a RO - they lived with their family nearby so far as I can tell [and I don't think possible any way otherwise]

 

11 minutes ago, TEW said:

Address is Copthorne Lodge.

 

 Now that is a bit of a teaser [and where was it?] - but I am more minded to go for Belle Vue area given the home address for the POI

Edited 9 September , 2019 by Matlock1418
addition

[TEW]

Just had another idea and checked Ancestry's Phone Books 1880-1984. Not easy to navigate but I did eventually find the phone number for No. 1 Infantry Records Office, Shrewsbury in 1921!

 

Address is simply given as The Square, Shrewsbury, Phone No. 412 or 492 in case you need to know!

 

Not sure why No. 2 is not listed as well. Not easy to use, even though I found the entry above I can't then do a search to get that result. Although it's listed as 'Record Office' (indexed as Record) and sits between 'Raven Hotel' and 'Rice-Oxley' it won't return a hit for 'Record Office', or 'Rice-Oxley' for that year for some reason.

 

Have browsed through 1909 & 1911 and no sign of any Record Office.

TEW

[Matlock1418]

42 minutes ago, TEW said:

Just had another idea and checked Ancestry's Phone Books 1880-1984

Thanks

Not got a sub to Ancestry but never even thought that there might be such an otion/source

Amazing - but think the phone number might just have changed a bit! ;-)

Now where is that Square?  Hmm, Mr G's maps says just off/south the A5191 in centre of town.

Wish I could see the back of the buildings [or of course they may have been redeveloped  but backs of such buildings often't aren't quite as modernised as the front facade] and I would have thought photos would have been taken at the rear of buildings/out of the public eye.

Not too far from Dogpole and the TF offices in 1915 though

Trouble is the 1918 photos of No1 and No2 RO seem to have a much more open rear aspect than I might expect in a town centre

???

 

Edit = its certainly not still in existance on the south-east side of the square - all been redeveloped much more recently 

Edited 9 September , 2019 by Matlock1418
small addition

[Bordercollie]

The attached correspondence (from WO 363 courtesy of ancestry) gives the address of No.2 Infantry Record Office Shrewsbury as the Riding School.  This would be the Riding School in Longden Coleham.  There is a photograph of the old riding school, now a church, on the Drill Halls project website here

 

However I suspect that you are more interested in No.1 Infantry Record Office Shrewsbury which was responsible for KSLI soldier records and all the correspondence I have seen from that office simply gives its address as Shrewsbury. Probably the No.2 Office added the Riding School to its address to avoid their correspondence being misdirected to the No.1 Office.

 

I thought Kelly's Directory might be more likely to provide a clue to the whereabouts of the No.1 Office than the Census but the 1913 edition (available on line here) provides addresses for several military units in Shrewsbury but not the Infantry Record Office. There is one potential clue although this may be no more than speculation on my part. The 1913 Kelly's Directory gives the address of the Headquarters of the Welsh Division TF as 3 Belmont by 1938, according to the Army List, the Division's Headquarters was located at Morfe House, Belle Vue Road.  The 1946 Army List gives the address of the Infantry Record Office Shrewsbury then as Whitehall, Shrewsbury, this would be Whitehall, Monkmoor Road and not really in Belle Vue. So I wonder whether the original address of the Infantry Record Office and later No.1 Infantry Record Office was Morfe House and perhaps sometime in the 1920s after the No.1 and No.2 Offices had merged back into a single office they moved to Whitehall and the Division Headquarters moved into Morfe House when it was vacated.  As I say this is no more than speculation.

 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Bordercollie said:

The attached correspondence (from WO 363 courtesy of ancestry) gives the address of No.2 Infantry Record Office Shrewsbury as the Riding School.  This would be the Riding School in Longden Coleham.  There is a photograph of the old riding school, now a church, on the Drill Halls project website here

 

However I suspect that you are more interested in No.1 Infantry Record Office Shrewsbury which was responsible for KSLI soldier records and all the correspondence I have seen from that office simply gives its address as Shrewsbury. Probably the No.2 Office added the Riding School to its address to avoid their correspondence being misdirected to the No.1 Office.

Thanks

Hmm - think Longden Coleham might be considered Belle Vue ?? = Belle Vue for POI employment most likely as they resided there.

Interestingly on the Drill Hall Project site you indicated, the photo of the Armoury is post-war as reconstructed by the Severn and also as a bakery - Armoury in use for convelescence must have been during the war though - or the Belgians' hostel photo see my post #13 at that time.  Or both?

Neither the Armoury (then and now) or Riding School Drill Hall (now) appear to have the construction/type of windows as per the photos in the very first post - so neither seem a likely fit.

KSLI association may be largely immaterial as for a female civilian POI

No1 there too, or not ???

Your rational on addressing mail seems very plausible given that most/all posties, of the day, didn't need a postcode to get the mail through 

As for:

Morfe House =  a problem = Built of stone, not brick like in original photos - Another one seems to bite the dust.

Whitehall=  a problem = Built of stone, not brick like in original photos - Another one seems to bite the dust.

Thanks for your local knowledge though.

 

Edited 9 September , 2019 by Matlock1418
expansion and new info

[TEW]

Going by memory only now. The Riding School came up a few times in my phone book searches earlier today but not in a RO context.

I have no local knowledge so are the Drill Hall and Riding School more or less the same place?

I ask as I'm fairly certain that the number for the Adjutant 4th TF at the Drill Hall, Coleham in 1921 was the same number given for The Riding School in an earlier year.

I could check the military phone book entries again tomorrow if needed.

 

What is the original source that says the photos relate to 1 or 2 RO Shrewsbury, could that be wrong? Is there a reason those ROs would have scouts, serving soldiers, discharged soldiers etc.

TEW

[Matlock1418]

12 hours ago, TEW said:

I have no local knowledge so are the Drill Hall and Riding School more or less the same place?

I have limited knowledge but I suspect the Riding School was the Drill Hall / a drill hall - Bordercollie seems to have much more local knowledge so I am sure she can clarify.

As for phone number etc. If you care to pursue that would be appreciated and might turn up something.

Who knows? Might be a useful snippet for the whole wider matter of ROs in Shrewsbury.

 

12 hours ago, TEW said:

What is the original source that says the photos relate to 1 or 2 RO Shrewsbury

You may recall No1 or No2 RO was not in the original OP - such enquiry/clarification of location was sought, but ... ???

The source/s is/are firstly; the female civilian's POI's immediate family - she is in the two larger goups photos [with at least one contemporary inked marker on an original print, now digitally removed, and later hand-written annotations on the rear]

And secondly; that of her [as then to be/future] spouse whose military SR clearly indicates/definitely known to have worked at [part of?] "Records Office, Shrewsbury" - in mid to late 1919 only [not identified as at No1 or No2]  He is not in the group photos.  He was subsequently longer than most delayed, demobbing everyone else! - But he consequentially made good use of his time!!

The two larger groups seem to be in the same location, but the smaller = ?? but probably the same [as I can't otherwise explain why all three photos would have become kept together].

Other more private photographic evidence, identical from both parties' own collections, places them both, singularly and together, firmly in Shrewsbury at the same time - incl. walking out in the Dingle / Quarry / St Chad's church area and with soldier in uniform.  Obviously courting - the rest is "History".  Possibly also the soldier at the Castle [but not quite so sure about that - might be the Dingle, or a beautyspot elsewhere with an old stone structure???]

But which RO for female civilian? - this was the source/OP enquiry

And which for soldier? - more speculatively.

Perhaps the same RO ??? - seems a distinct possibility, but not absolutely confirmed as such - though their children did say to me many years ago that their parents had met at the RO [And their father didn't contradict - but he didn't directly talk much about the war himself. I actually think much info came to them from their mother who was pre-deceased by the time I heard] - don't think the children knew there were two or possibly more RO, so not clear if it was the same/different - and all the now deceased can't be asked again]

Just hoped someone might be able to offer an idea or two on location of OP photos [composition of the genders and statuses of the individuals portrayed would appear to match those in the panoramic RO photos at Shropshire Archives, so I'm not challenging them as a relevant RO of some sort - but location??]

And/or hope to identify any of individuals the photographed - I'm guessing the officers would probably be the most likely candidates.

And also I've just put some interesting photos out there in the public domain - no real point in them just sitting in a private collection.

I hope someone can make good use of them - if publically used some recogintion, to at least the GWF, would be appropriate please.

But where were they taken???

 

12 hours ago, TEW said:

Is there a reason those ROs would have scouts, serving soldiers, discharged soldiers etc.

I think ... Worthy employment during the war and post-Armistice for Scouts [as runners??], ex-soldiers and civilians (older men and females of various ages) - all for the greater war effort, with a military leadership and core staff.  All necessary to get so many men de-mobbed as quickly as possible 1918/19.

The soldier mentioned above was promoted from his battalion into an OR Serjeant  [formerly a clerk in previous civilian life - Good heavens the army actually making good use of civilian skills!  And not just miners and engineers etc.  ;-) ]

 

Thanks again.  :-)

Matlock

Edited 10 September , 2019 by Matlock1418
The usual reason(s) - typos and expansion

[Bordercollie]

The Drill Hall and the Riding School in Longden Coleham were separate buildings as the attached 1925 OS map  (courtesy of the National Library of Scotland) shows. The Sewage Station stood between the two. It looks to me as though the Drill Halls website has mistaken the Drill Hall for the Riding School.  On street view the Sewage Station can be seen to the left of what is now a church and it seems that that the Riding School site has been redeveloped and is now flats .

[Matlock1418]

4 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

The Drill Hall and the Riding School in Longden Coleham were separate buildings as the attached 1925 OS map  (courtesy of the National Library of Scotland) shows.

Thanks for clarication - if only for the wider RO picture

4 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

The Sewage Station stood between the two. It looks to me as though the Drill Halls website has mistaken the Drill Hall for the Riding School.  On street view the Sewage Station can be seen to the left of what is now a church and it seems that that the Riding School site has been redeveloped and is now flats .

I concur the sewage / pumping station is clearly still there, and thus now with modification at front c/w 1925 the church is at the front of the larger Drill Hall at rear - I think!

The Drill Hall wouldn't seem to match the style of building in the two larger photos in OP - so still ???

 

The Riding School wasn't on 'satellite' view and 'streetview' certainly now shows a brand new set of flats on and in front of its old 1925 position

 

Edited 10 September , 2019 by Matlock1418
I hate my typos