Shrewsbury Records Office???

[TEW]

Looking through phone books at present. Just noticed something relevant to Kath's Post#2 which shows a cropped part of the image. There is a Livesey & Co. Stationers & Printers, St John's Hill in 1909.

 

Also, G H Morgan Solicitor at 2 Dogpole, 1909.

 

No Military type entries for 1909.

 

1910, 1911 & 1912 have;

Shropshire Territiorial Association. St Alkmond's Square.

 

Ancestry don't seem to have Shrewsbury books for 1913 - 1920.

 

1921 Has;

Adjutant 4th KSLI TF. Drill Hall, Coleham. Shrewsbury 318

Headquarters No. 4 District, Granville St. Shrewsbury 375 (Missed this yesterday!) This is off Copthorne Rd.

Record Office, No. 1 Infantry, The Square. Shrewsbury 412 & 492.

Royal Engineers (CRE Welsh Area) 3 Belmont. Shrewsbury 498.

Shropshire Territorial Association, 1 St Mary's Court. Shrewsbury 212.

 

Under main heading of Territorial Force Shropshire;

4th Reserve Btn. KSLI, Drillhall. Shrewsbury 318

Riding School, Coleham. Shrewsbury 62.

TEW

 

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, TEW said:

Just noticed something relevant to Kath's Post#2 which shows a cropped part of the image. There is a Livesey & Co. Stationers & Printers, St John's Hill in 1909.

Yep, had seen it but had kept it up my sleeve for a while longer - just helps to prove Shrewsbury, but would their address help us?

Have you got access to their accounts/customers' address book? - that might!

 

4 minutes ago, TEW said:

G H Morgan Solicitor at 2 Dogpole, 1909

Think the press 1915 article about TF moving to that address would probably rule it out but ???

BTW, I think it is up for rent as commercial property at the moment! [certainly the front groundfloor shop is] - but that is now to be put off-topic!!!

 

Your other selection of addresses includes some of those have been discussed by Bordercollie and although No.1 might have been tied to The Square we don't have an exact address - and I actually think slightly unlikely for the group photos [at the present imho]

But Longham Coleham ??? - the Drill Hall and the Riding School do have their problems and for 1919 I think

Copthorne Road ???

All addresses seem possible for a Belle Vue resident, but ... ???

 

Will have to Google/streetview those other addresses too - tbc.

Thanks for your continued help.

Matlock

 

 

[Robin Garrett]

Interesting that Livesey & Co are still in business today!

[Matlock1418]

On 11/09/2019 at 09:34, Robin Garrett said:

Interesting that Livesey & Co are still in business today!

Are they?

My web search today suggested they went into Administration in 2010 and are permanently closed ???

[Robin Garrett]

Matlock you are right; I guess I searched for them and didn't read what I found. Mea Culpa

[alf mcm]

Some of the women were 'Brought to the notice of the Secretary of State for War' and are mentioned in 'The Times';-

The list shows name, office location, Times article heading, date of publication.

 

Miss H. HIGGINS, Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘War Services – List of Mentions’, 05/11/18

Miss H. PARKES, Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘War Services – List of Mentions’, 05/11/18

Mrs. K. RUMFITT, Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘War Services – List of Mentions’, 05/11/18

Mrs. A.E. WREN, No. 2 Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘War Services – List of Mentions – Department of the Adjutant General’, 08/03/19

Miss E. FAGO, No. 1 Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘Military Records – List of Mentions’, 17/03/19

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[SteveE]

I happened to be checking a SWB Roll issued from the Shrewsbury Record Office and, whilst the majority of the stamps used for the 'Place' are either "Shrewsbury" or "Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury", there was one that was different, don't know if it helps but it was stamped "Claremont Bank, Shrewsbury" as the 'Place'.

 

Steve

(Image sourced from SWB Roll WO329/3088 via Ancestry.co.uk)

[Matlock1418]

26 minutes ago, SteveE said:

I happened to be checking a SWB Roll issued from the Shrewsbury Record Office and, whilst the majority of the stamps used for the 'Place' are either "Shrewsbury" or "Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury", there was one that was different, don't know if it helps but it was stamped "Claremont Bank, Shrewsbury" as the 'Place'.

Thanks for your interest/this snippet.

Will have to look at.

Hmmm ???? The search goes on.

BTW does anyone know if SWB were usually processed at a RO or usually/commonly at a different location ???

 

Edit: having now done a Streetview/satellite search [of C21st Claremont Bank/buildings] there are some buildings that at their rear might appear to possibly fit the bill for the larger group photos of OP - and the smaller numbers in those groups might perhaps fit with a smaller office [for SWB] than from the large ones shown in the panoramics from ROs ???

Now that has thrown the cat amongst the pigeons - might the female POI have actually been working at a SWB office when she met a soldier confirmed from an infantry RO [with No1 RO as prime suspect] ???  Different from previous accounts ???  Can't ask them now = ???

Edited 13 September , 2019 by Matlock1418
Addition

[Matlock1418]

28 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

Some of the women were 'Brought to the notice of the Secretary of State for War' and are mentioned in 'The Times';-

The list shows name, office location, Times article heading, date of publication.

 

Miss H. HIGGINS, Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘War Services – List of Mentions’, 05/11/18

Miss H. PARKES, Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘War Services – List of Mentions’, 05/11/18

Mrs. K. RUMFITT, Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘War Services – List of Mentions’, 05/11/18

Mrs. A.E. WREN, No. 2 Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘War Services – List of Mentions – Department of the Adjutant General’, 08/03/19

Miss E. FAGO, No. 1 Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘Military Records – List of Mentions’, 17/03/19

 

Thanks Alf

Confirms the two RO (but still no addresses cited above) but pleasingly does confirm recognition of the valuable role that women, even if only some get mentioned, played in their activities. :-)

That said I think we have now closed in on the two main RO in Shrewsbury during the war

No.1 = The Square (Actual full address not quite, there but thereabouts/pretty close)

No.2 = The Riding School (seems nicely very specific)

But still perhaps not the exact dates 

Unfortunately still no closer to identifying the actual location of the two main group photos in OP i.e. where the civilian female POI probably actually worked

The search goes on ...

 

Again - I'm very much obliged to all who have posted in this thread

[alf mcm]

Although I have only listed women, there were also men from the Records Offices who were 'noticed' in the same articles. I didn't record the men but remember they were recorded by name and rank and perhaps service number.. Their service records may identify the addresses of the other offices.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[Matlock1418]

5 hours ago, alf mcm said:

Some of the women were 'Brought to the notice of the Secretary of State for War' and are mentioned in 'The Times';-

The list shows name, office location, Times article heading, date of publication.

 

2 hours ago, alf mcm said:

Although I have only listed women, there were also men from the Records Offices who were 'noticed' in the same articles. I didn't record the men but remember they were recorded by name and rank and perhaps service number.. Their service records may identify the addresses of the other offices

Thanks again for keeping this thread in mind Alf,

 

I suspect that is a newspaper archive of "The TImes" you are looking at - Is it accessible without a subscription?

Or worst case [!] - with a subscription? And where from?

 

Probably need some names, etc., though - Think I can get at SR through Ancestry and my local library, but not newspaper archives there.

 

Also made me wonder about the London Gazette - but not at all sure how to search that for honours without names! Can try Shrewsbury as an address I suppose [and yet LG unlikely to give a decent full address - though if some distinctive names or high social/military position might get info from elsewhere on their services, perhaps including address for RO - but think that is a very long shot]

Hmm ... ?

[alf mcm]

I have free access to 'The Times' through the National Library of Scotland, but you havev t0 be resident in Scotland to get this.

I am about to go away for the weekend so can't help just now in looking for names.

With regards to addresses-

Post Office Directories might be available for Shrewsbury, also I think that Ancestry have Telephone Directories.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[Bordercollie]

The Army List for October 1917 shows just one Infantry Record Office Shrewsbury with responsibility for soldiers records in Cheshire Regt, RWF, SWB (incl Mon Regt), S Lancs Regt, Welsh Regt and Shrops LI (including Hereford Regt). The November 1917 Army List shows two Infantry Record Offices Shrewsbury. Interestingly the two senior regiments are allocated to No.2 and the others to No.1. November 1917 seems rather late for the expansion in Record Office capacity (which applied to most other Infantry Record Offices too) but perhaps it came about due to the anticipated pressure that could be expected from a rapid demobilisation. 

 

The only hit for "Infantry Record Office Shrewsbury" I had searching the Times archive between 1914 and 1920 was an advertisement on 24th March 1919 inviting eligible officers and other ranks from the "Shrewsbury" regiments to apply for the 1914 Star. Annoyingly officers are given a full address for their application, the War Office (AG10), 27 Pilgrim Street EC4, while other ranks are told to apply either to Oi/c Records, No.1 Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury or to Oi/c Records, No.2 Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury, depending on their regiment. I thought other ranks were sent their medals automatically without the need for an application but perhaps that was only for BWM and VM.

[FROGSMILE]

On 13/09/2019 at 10:48, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks for your interest/this snippet.

Will have to look at.

Hmmm ???? The search goes on.

BTW does anyone know if SWB were usually processed at a RO or usually/commonly at a different location ???

 

Edit: having now done a Streetview/satellite search [of C21st Claremont Bank/buildings] there are some buildings that at their rear might appear to possibly fit the bill for the larger group photos of OP - and the smaller numbers in those groups might perhaps fit with a smaller office [for SWB] than from the large ones shown in the panoramics from ROs ???

Now that has thrown the cat amongst the pigeons - might the female POI have actually been working at a SWB office when she met a soldier confirmed from an infantry RO [with No1 RO as prime suspect] ???  Different from previous accounts ???  Can't ask them now = ???

 

Claremont Bank has very specific types of architecture, and the red brick, with vertical brick lintel above the the windows seen in your photo is one of them.  The old St Chads Rectory, now known as Claremont House and part of a doctor’s surgery seems a possible candidate.  There are also some terraced houses with similar windows.  Unfortunately the photos I enclose only show the front of the properties, whereas those heading this thread are clearly the rear.  I don’t know how ‘The Square’ relates to Claremont Bank, though, except that the term bank in this case relates to the nearby river and not a financial institution.

 

 

[SteveE]

On ‎13‎/‎09‎/‎2019 at 10:48, Matlock1418 said:

BTW does anyone know if SWB were usually processed at a RO or usually/commonly at a different location ???

SWBs were, as far as I'm aware, processed by the Record Offices which is why the snippet I added looked interesting. The majority of stamps used on the rolls that I looked at were either "Shrewsbury" or "Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury" but the "Claremont Bank, Shrewsbury" stamp was used on a single page that I chanced upon which makes me think that it was possibly lying around in the Record Office for other purposes and got used in that instance.

 

Steve

Edited 17 September , 2019 by SteveE

[Matlock1418]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Claremont Bank has very specific types of architecture, and the red brick, with vertical brick lintel above the the windows seen in your photo is one of them.  The old St Chads Rectory, now known as Claremont House and part of a doctor’s surgery seems a possible candidate.  There are also some terraced houses with similar windows.  Unfortunately the photos I enclose only show the front of the properties, whereas those heading this thread are clearly the rear

Thanks for your input and observations on design - that was exactly what I was looking at/for along with the enclosed angle in the building, but which building?

Therein lies the rub - I too think the photos would have been taken at the rear - and of course the rears may have changed quite a lot in 100 years.

Unfortunately no shadows to help orientate [I think that at least my photos 2b and 3e probably had flash too]

Many terraced buildings along Claremont Bank [especially on the lower east side] also seem to have brick rears, despite the often fancier frontal facades in many cases - but how to determine ???

 

4 hours ago, SteveE said:

the "Claremont Bank, Shrewsbury" stamp was used on a single page that I chanced upon which makes me think that it was possibly lying around in the Record Office for other purposes and got used in that instance.

Thanks.

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

might the female POI have actually been working at a SWB office when she met a soldier confirmed from an infantry RO [with No1 RO as prime suspect] ???

Certainly No1 RO at The Square wouldn't have been too far away from Claremont Bank

The hunt goes on ...

[Madmeg]

Having been directed to these from a post of my own regarding the Shrewsbury Army pay office, the lady on the far right of the front row in the first picture is the dead spit of my great aunt Mildred Sarah Simmonds who told me (many many) years ago that she had worked there (subject of my own thread). The only issue is that it looks a little old to be her- she would only have been in her very early 20's in 1919 (b 1897). I don;t see her older sister Dorothy or younger brother Joseph (has a thread of his own) in those photos.

I'll chase up my transcript of the notes she gave me (on another PC) and see if she said where the office was.

I note that a number of the women seem to be wearing some sort of uniform overcoat while others appear to be wearing a different uniform jacket. 

[Madmeg]

On 13/09/2019 at 21:09, alf mcm said:

Some of the women were 'Brought to the notice of the Secretary of State for War' and are mentioned in 'The Times';-

The list shows name, office location, Times article heading, date of publication.

 

Miss H. HIGGINS, Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘War Services – List of Mentions’, 05/11/18

Miss H. PARKES, Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘War Services – List of Mentions’, 05/11/18

Mrs. K. RUMFITT, Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘War Services – List of Mentions’, 05/11/18

Mrs. A.E. WREN, No. 2 Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘War Services – List of Mentions – Department of the Adjutant General’, 08/03/19

Miss E. FAGO, No. 1 Infantry Record Office, Shrewsbury, ‘Military Records – List of Mentions’, 17/03/19

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

and to add to that-

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3414365/3414368/28/

Miss AE Jones supervisor 

Mrs (!) a married woman , with a ... JOB! anyway Mrs G Chamberlain (previouslyEdwards)

AW Berridge

Mrs AE Wren

Miss RFB Lloyd- Mostyn

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3414365/3414368/28/

Just found the Welsh newspapapers site and it is quite handy . Gives lots of references to the Records Office as it refers to it each time a man walled notified as killed! However, there are also a number of references to people working there (H.Whiteside (address given) Lt Hamilton Lloyd (address given)

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Interesting to see the two Boy Scouts in the original photo.  Boys who volunteered (with parents permission) were allocated to Records Offices, railway stations, post offices, etc. as ‘Messengers’ and were awarded special cloth ‘war service’ badges marking their period of service.  The five other ranks in uniform (one without headdress) are almost certainly the seated ‘staff’ officers (note gorget tabs) servants (batmen).  They would have been of a ‘home service only’ medical grade. 

Edited 2 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Bordercollie]

Kelly's Directory of Shropshire for 1913 gives the address of the Army Pay Office Shrewsbury as Priory House.  Priory House is in Priory Road, a turning off Claremont Bank and is now a school.  Priory House was listed in 1972 but from Google Streetview it looks as though there has been considerable redevelopment at the back of the building.  Although Priory House is clearly a brick building the 1903 map suggests that its rear elevation then does not fit the original photograph. 

1903 map courtesy of the National Library of Scotland

 

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, Bordercollie said:

Kelly's Directory of Shropshire for 1913 gives the address of the Army Pay Office Shrewsbury as Priory House.  Priory House is in Priory Road, a turning off Claremont Bank and is now a school.  Priory House was listed in 1972 but from Google Streetview it looks as though there has been considerable redevelopment at the back of the building.  Although Priory House is clearly a brick building the 1903 map suggests that its rear elevation then does not fit the original photograph. 

1903 map courtesy of the National Library of Scotland

 

Brilliant work Bordercollie.  I certainly think that you’ve identified the location of the photos given the records you’ve quoted and the identical style of sash windows and vertical lintel brickwork.  Although I realise that such brickwork was common then, once you factor in the recorded location and the obvious suitability of the building then I think the conclusion is a fairly secure one.  The backdrop to the photo appears to be a single storey corridor connecting two sides of the original building.  Presumably it’s been absorbed by whatever extension has taken place subsequently (unless it’s out of sight to the rear of our view).

Edited 2 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

16 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

Kelly's Directory of Shropshire for 1913 gives the address of the Army Pay Office Shrewsbury as Priory House.  Priory House is in Priory Road, a turning off Claremont Bank and is now a school.  Priory House was listed in 1972 but from Google Streetview it looks as though there has been considerable redevelopment at the back of the building.  Although Priory House is clearly a brick building the 1903 map suggests that its rear elevation then does not fit the original photograph. 

Thank you for your further assistance - Once again your local knowledge is shining through.

You do seem to have found the APO before the war [and I suspect quite likely during it too]

However, like you, I'm not sure it is the ARO [or wherever the late/post-war opening photos are from] - in two of those photos there is an overhanging soffit and below an ornamental proud course of bricks above the window headers.  If that was the rear of the building, as seems likely [though clearly much redeveloped in more recent years] then surely that sort of brick feature would also be found ornamentally on the front - which it is not on Priory House.

The hunt for the mystery location goes on I think.

:-) M

[Madmeg]

The young man 3rd from our right front row civilian in first pic is awfully similar to young man standing 2nd from right in uniform in third picture- brothers? 

Picture 1 and pic 3 taken at same place- pic two appears to be a doorway not apparent in other two pics.

Found my great aunt's notes.

Dorothy Alma Simmonds went to work at the Army Pay Corp at the outbreak of the war and left there when it closed in 1918. Went nursing in Camberwell in 1919.

Mildred Sarah Simmonds worked in Llandrindod Wells until outbreak of war, returned home to Bicton Heath, worked as a dentist's receptionist for while then went to the Army Pay Corp until the end of the war, went to London in 1920

Joseph William Gilbert Simmonds [after being discharged unfit from active duty in November 1917- ?gassed?] went to work for the Records Office a branch of the Army Pay Corp (sic)

Unfortunately no details of location- indicates that the Pay Office shut at the end of the War- but no exact date - anyone know?

So both the sisters were there for most of the war until ? closure of the Office at the end of the war. Their brother was in the records office from late 1917/early 1918, unknown when he left (but he applied for the Territorials in 1922)

 

 

 

Edited 3 September , 2021 by Madmeg

[Madmeg]

Priory HOUSE appears to have been subdivided into flats which you can find on the market (dont; get confused with Priory LODGE) next door though is the Priory Sixth Form College. https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@52.7085923,-2.7607554,3a,75y,29.51h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBs0F2dGzmMoXaiAKpf5CdQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DBs0F2dGzmMoXaiAKpf5CdQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D18.926275%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 which looks more like a suitable buildimg for something as large as the pay office? https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5726017. This appears to be the back of the Priory house building marked on the 1903 map and pictured above.. if you take a google street view walk around to the rear you can just see those shallow steps from one angle and the very top of the bay window from another- so- sorry that can't be it- but the Priory House building of the school is a possibility?

 

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

Priory HOUSE appears to have been subdivided into flats which you can find on the market (dont; get confused with Priory LODGE) next door though is the Priory Sixth Form College. https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@52.7085923,-2.7607554,3a,75y,29.51h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBs0F2dGzmMoXaiAKpf5CdQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DBs0F2dGzmMoXaiAKpf5CdQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D18.926275%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 which looks more like a suitable buildimg for something as large as the pay office? https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5726017. This appears to be the back of the Priory house building marked on the 1903 map and pictured above.. if you take a google street view walk around to the rear you can just see those shallow steps from one angle and the very top of the bay window from another- so- sorry that can't be it- but the Priory House building of the school is a possibility?

 

Is that a completely different Priory House to the one identified by Bordercollie.  Surely there aren’t two at the same place, are there?