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collectorsguide

John,Not sure of what info you are hoping the cards will reveal but if you let me know what you are hoping to achieve I will be able to advise you.Remember the current microfiches of the TNA and FMP collections are only in black and white and only copied on one side. Chris Bate and I are getting close to beginning to publish various parts of our MM  project.The Roll of Annotations taken from the reverse of the cards is due at the printers end of August.There are 10,000 entries plus a section on the MM Cards themselves with many illustrations and explanations of the codes ,comments ,annotations and abbreviations found on them.Anyway let me know what you want to gain from them best w. Howard

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear All,

Howard is to be highly commended for his tireless energy and high ability.

He is - as I can testify - an extremely modest person, notwithstanding his outstanding publishing efforts for the good of the Collector fraternity. 

Any notion of his having made any money from MICs and what-not, can be instantly dispelled! Without him and his stalwart Mates, the documents would have been gone forever...!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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charlie962
9 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Without him and his stalwart Mates, the documents would have been gone forever...!

Good on them. Rather similar to the tale of the pension records, I suspect.

Charlie

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bif
On 27/07/2019 at 18:58, collectorsguide said:

Anyway let me know what you want to gain from them

Howard,     Thanks for your reply.  The answer is any info you have and wish to share.  I have two MM groups:

 

Taylor, Albert, 2/Seaforth, # 10224,  MM ( LG 18 July 1917 )   and

Adam, William John, 6/Seaforth, # 1586 and 5/Seaforth, # 265348, MM ( LG 13 March 1918 )

                                                           Respectfully,   John  (bif)

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collectorsguide

John,Information I have as follows:

*W.J ADAM  1/5TH BN SEAFORTH (FORMERLY 1/6 BN)  MM L/GAZ :13.3.18. SCHEDULE NUMBER 143895.

RECOMMENDED FOR MM WITH J SINCLAIR 267297 5/BN/  and J W SMITH 202138 5/BN.

ONE OF 10 AWARDS TO 1/5 BN and 16 MMs to 1/6 BN FOR THE BATTLE OF CAMBRAI   20-23  NOV  1917.(2ND CAMBRAI GAZETTE. 51ST DIV.)  

 

*ALBERT TAYLOR  10224 2/BN SEAFORTH H L/GAZ 18.7.17. SCHEDULE NUMBER 92383  RECOMMENDED WITH PTE G MORRISON S/43040   2/BN/and J A BROOKER PTE 7030 RAMC ATTD 2/BN SEAFORTH.MM FOR THE BATTLE OF ARRAS(1ST BATTLE OF THE SCARPE) 3RD ARRAS GAZETTE/ 4TH DIV.

Info from MM ROLL C.Bate and H Williamson and the Schedule number Roll and Register of L/Gazettes for the MM. All unpublished rolls. BEST W, HOWARD

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bif
55 minutes ago, collectorsguide said:

,Information

Howard,     Thank you very much.  Knowledge is power.  Making a dossier on each man whose group I care for is like trying to make a puzzle without a picture of the completed item or knowing if any of the pieces are missing.  I owe you.   John (bif)

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collectorsguide

John , War Diaries should be next stop.Explore the dates noted. Arras start at 9th April.Taylor MM may be for rescue of wounded as his Schedule no sequence includes the RAMC man best w, Howard best w, Howard

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charlie962
3 minutes ago, collectorsguide said:

may be for rescue of wounded as his Schedule no sequence includes the RAMC man

Would that sort of deduction be obvious from your book ( I haven't made the investment yet)? That you have worked out the original place and date of the action leading to the award in most cases is incredibly useful. But each time one learns a new fact one wants to know more.

 

Thanks

Charlie

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collectorsguide

CHARLIE The answer is basically yes.In very general terms each gazette covers around 5 weeks.The Schedules were recommendations for a specific action ,usually all awards to a battalion on a schedule are for an action on the same day.Often there are several separate schedules to a single regiment/battalion in one Gazette.Chris Bate and myself are publishing a book early next year containing all the knowledge and data we have gathered working on this project over the past 22 years.(including how many MMs were won by each battalion:  numbers for each Theatre etc.) The data we have compiled uses original info from citations (we have around 50,000 that we are processing currently) The info is in the Companion Vol 1 however much additional information has come in over the past 8 years,although they are still very accurate. best w, Howard

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charlie962
4 minutes ago, collectorsguide said:

containing all the knowledge and data we have gathered

Thank you for that reply. The new book will be fascinating. Of course not all knowledge can be mined and put in book form!

 

Charlie

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PJS

I wonder if there is any advice from anyone on my research into my Gt Uncle's MM?

 

Edwin Slater’s Military Medal was announced in the London Gazette on the 16th November, 1917 and in the Edinburgh Gazette on 21st November 1917. The gazette, simply says “22754 Pte E. Slater, R. Scots (Ashton-under-Lyne)”. Other documents show that Edwin was attached to the 11th Royal Scots at this time.

 

Additionally, we have a short article in his local newspaper, the Ashton Reporter, regarding his award but unfortunately it provides no additional details except that it was published on October 20, 1917 a month before the official listing in the London Gazette.

 

The battalion War Diary describes an attack on 5th June 1917 in the neighbourhood of Greenland Hill, Arras, which was successful at the cost of 130 Other Ranks (ORs) and 11 Officer casualties. The next major action was an assault at Railway Wood in Flanders on 20th September 1917, with approximately 100 OR casualties. Finally, on October 12, 1917 the 11th Scots were involved in an attack and on October 29, the war diary notes that “5 men, out of six recommended, received honours for gallantry in the action of October 12th”.

 

Divisional and AQMG War Diaries contain nothing useful that I could find.

 

20th September 1917 seems the most likely candidate (based purely on the dates of everything above) but apart from waiting for the book is there any other potential avenue to pursue to try and pin it down further?

 

Peter

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collectorsguide

Peter,Information I hold on Pte Edwin Slater is as follows:

HE WENT TO FRANCE ON 11.8.1915 WITH 11TH BN ROYAL SCOTS.AT SOME STAGE HE WAS TRANSFERRED TO THE 13TH BN R SCOTS WITH WHOM HE WON THE MM.   AWARD  PROMULGATED IN THE LONDON GAZETTE OF 19.11.1917.     AT THIS TIME 13TH R.SCOTS WERE PART OF 45/BRIGADE 15TH SCOTTISH DIV. HIS REGISTERED PAPER NO:RP/68/121/327  INDICATES AN AWARD FOR 3RD YPRES.HIS SCHEDULE NUMBER :111419 INDICATES IT WAS ONE OF FIVE 15TH DIVISION MMs AWARDED TO 13/R.SCOTS ON THE DAY.

AWARDS WERE TO :16152 J STEEL SCH NO 111417 /   20635 W CARR SCH NO 111418         / 37371 W MULHOLLAND SCH NO 111420          /15296 H CHARLESON SCH NO 111422.    ALL 13/BN R.SCOTS.

THE L/GAZ OF 19.11.17 COVERS AWARDS FROM 27.7.17. TO 26.9.17  THESE 5 (OR 6)AWARDS ARE FOR GALLANTRY ON WEDNESDAY 22ND AUGUST 1917 IN THE 15TH DIV ATTACK AT 4.45 AM WITH 44 ,AND 45TH BDES .THE 45/BDE ATTACK WITH 11TH ARGYLLS  AND 13 RS WAS ON  POTSDAM,VAMPIR AND BORRY FARMS.UNDER THE LIGHT OF FLARES MACHINE GUNS WIPED OUT MOST OF THE ATTACKING INFANTRY.SURVIVORS FELL BACK  TO ESTABLISH A LINE FROM RAILWAY DUMP TO BECK HOUSE.13 R SCOTS TRIED TO GET FORWARD REPEATEDLY THROUGHOUT THE DAY, BUT WERE UNSUCCESSFUL.TWO COUNTER ATTACKS WERE BEATEN OFF WITH RIFLE FIRE.AND ARTILLERY.OTHER 45TH BDE AWARDS FOR THIS ACTION WERE TO THE 11TH A and S.HIGHRS (=4 MMs) , .HE APPARENTLY ALSO SERVED IN 16TH BN R.SCOTS.  HOPE THIS GIVES YOU A BIT OF SCOPE FOR FURTHER RESEARCH. Best w, Howard

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PJS
11 hours ago, collectorsguide said:

Peter,Information I hold on Pte Edwin Slater is as follows:

HE WENT TO FRANCE ON 11.8.1915 WITH 11TH BN ROYAL SCOTS.AT SOME STAGE HE WAS TRANSFERRED TO THE 13TH BN R SCOTS WITH WHOM HE WON THE MM.   AWARD  PROMULGATED IN THE LONDON GAZETTE OF 19.11.1917.     AT THIS TIME 13TH R.SCOTS WERE PART OF 45/BRIGADE 15TH SCOTTISH DIV. HIS REGISTERED PAPER NO:RP/68/121/327  INDICATES AN AWARD FOR 3RD YPRES.HIS SCHEDULE NUMBER :111419 INDICATES IT WAS ONE OF FIVE 15TH DIVISION MMs AWARDED TO 13/R.SCOTS ON THE DAY.

AWARDS WERE TO :16152 J STEEL SCH NO 111417 /   20635 W CARR SCH NO 111418         / 37371 W MULHOLLAND SCH NO 111420          /15296 H CHARLESON SCH NO 111422.    ALL 13/BN R.SCOTS.

THE L/GAZ OF 19.11.17 COVERS AWARDS FROM 27.7.17. TO 26.9.17  THESE 5 (OR 6)AWARDS ARE FOR GALLANTRY ON WEDNESDAY 22ND AUGUST 1917 IN THE 15TH DIV ATTACK AT 4.45 AM WITH 44 ,AND 45TH BDES .THE 45/BDE ATTACK WITH 11TH ARGYLLS  AND 13 RS WAS ON  POTSDAM,VAMPIR AND BORRY FARMS.UNDER THE LIGHT OF FLARES MACHINE GUNS WIPED OUT MOST OF THE ATTACKING INFANTRY.SURVIVORS FELL BACK  TO ESTABLISH A LINE FROM RAILWAY DUMP TO BECK HOUSE.13 R SCOTS TRIED TO GET FORWARD REPEATEDLY THROUGHOUT THE DAY, BUT WERE UNSUCCESSFUL.TWO COUNTER ATTACKS WERE BEATEN OFF WITH RIFLE FIRE.AND ARTILLERY.OTHER 45TH BDE AWARDS FOR THIS ACTION WERE TO THE 11TH A and S.HIGHRS (=4 MMs) , .HE APPARENTLY ALSO SERVED IN 16TH BN R.SCOTS.  HOPE THIS GIVES YOU A BIT OF SCOPE FOR FURTHER RESEARCH. Best w, Howard

 

Howard,

 

Wow! Thank You. I don't know what else to say. I am gobsmacked and eternally grateful to you. Looks like I'm going to be buying your book when it comes out ...

 

Peter

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charlie962

This is excellent publicity for the book ! Can I ask, please,  a couple of questons about this to help me understand the principles?

2 minutes ago, PJS said:

THE L/GAZ OF 19.11.17 COVERS AWARDS FROM 27.7.17. TO 26.9.17  THESE 5 (OR 6)AWARDS ARE FOR GALLANTRY ON WEDNESDAY 22ND AUGUST 1917 IN THE 15TH DIV ATTACK AT 4.45 AM WITH 44 ,AND 45TH BDES

How is that information determined so precisely ? Why is there uncertainty over 5 or 6 ?

 

Many thanks

Charlie

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collectorsguide

Charlie,Schedule number 111421 is missing and should be a 13th R,Scots soldier so it is likely there is an extra award,however it is possible the number  wasn't allocated ,so could be 5 !!!!

 

The Gazette dates have been arrived at by entering on tally lists details from known citations on that gazette which give the date and place of award.I am continually adding to these lists as I process citations.     I have processed many thousands of citations in this way ,often hundreds to one Gazette,which soon build a picture.Simply the date range on the gazette is determined by the earliest and latest date noted. Occasionally the dates are tweaked when a new verified citation is found outside the recorded norms.The information in the book will include date ranges for Dominion forces ,Schedule number range,   notes on gazette and operations covered , numbers awarded etc etc...…

You might like to know:L/GAZ:19.11.17.SCH NO RANGE :109655 TO 112605. MMs awarded:1940. bars :83...2nd bars 1.best w, Howard   ps  Peter,you probably won't need it now !!!!!

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charlie962

Howard, thank you for the explanations. All very helpful. Keep up the good work.

 

Charlie

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collectorsguide

Charlie,Reading your enquiry again I think you are also asking about how I ascertained the date of the action. Basically the choice was between the 45 bde attack on 31.7.17 or 22.8.17. The 19.11.17. Gazette's earliest award is for 16.8.17.,there are a number on that date for Langemarck,Wieltje etc and on 9.9.17 .3RD Ypres awards to Lond Regts,and finally for 20 to 26th Sept 1917 8/R.Scots at  Aviatik Farm etc. The RP NUMBER and Schedule numbers either side of 13th R SCOTS  includes the other battalion of 45 Bde ie the 11th Argylls and units of 44Bde who took part in the action. So all the evidence tied together leaving only one conclusion !

                                                  I cannot stress how important the Schedule numbers are to MM Research.They enable us to pin down precisely for what action an MM was awarded and how many each battalion was awarded in the order they were recommended on the Cin Cs Schedule,  when used with other info as I have described. So long gone is the old count back method which was all we had to go on for many years. The moment I sat looking at a pile of MM Cards having a cup of coffee and suddenly thought "What's a Schedule number ?" was my Eureka moment in medal research.The actual Roll is in 32 volumes and over 2000 pages.It still needs a lot of work to tidy up and understand the relationships between the Registered Paper numbers and the Schedule numbers but I'm getting there.I just hope the Grim Reaper doesn't get me before its all finished and published !!! best wishes, Howard

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear Howard,

I have said this before and I will say it again: I admire your application and ability, combined with sheer hard work! 

Your "Collectors and Researchers Guide to the Great War" (I) is in constant use for my research, thanks in part to the helpful Indian Army regiments section.

You have been rightly lauded by the OMRS, which is pleasing.

No doubt several of your books are already collector's items: now that is a high honour!

Keep it up, as I am sure you will, and to hell with any Reapers, Grim or otherwise...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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charlie962
11 hours ago, collectorsguide said:

Eureka moment in medal research

Where you in the bath at the time ?

 

Thanks for that further explanation. Good detective work plus hard slogging.

Charlie

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